5 ms·

Isn't "nerd culture" already a form of identity politics?

tnone 9y ago
Not necessarily. Identity politics is when issues get defacto interpreted through the lens of social identities, even if that identity is irrelevant or even meaningless for the matter at hand. Observing that there is such a thing as nerd culture does not really qualify. It typifies a particular set of practices and norms that set it apart from more mainstream sensibilities.
ThrustVectoring 9y ago
Being a nerd hasn't been politicized anywhere near as much as being a woman, being an ethnic minority, or being LGBT. Furthermore, there's active efforts to shut down "problematic" parts of nerd culture. The recent Google fiasco with James Damore is a highly relevant example - creating a safe space for dispassionate debate about controversial ideas is the number one reason why I like nerd culture.
- lordCarbonFiber 9y ago
  Lol what nerd culture do you participate in. It's "dispassionate debate" until an outsider tries to participate and then it's fire and brimstone. So long as ideas "follow the narrative" (regardless on how grounded in evidence or just made up) nerd culture will accept you. Otherwise, it's probably the most toxic and politicized groups around.
- mcphage 9y ago
  Certainly nerd culture isn't famous for an endless litany of flame wars. Emacs vs vim, that's pro-wrestling, right?
  - ThrustVectoring 9y ago
    Maybe "dispassionate" is the wrong word. Like, it's debates that are about ideas, not about people advancing the ideas or a power struggle between the underlying ideology. Or, like, Emacs vs Vim is all in good fun. The Emacs users don't try to get the Vim fanboys fired so that they don't spread pro-Vim heresy. There's some topics and environments where I feel safe speaking my mind before I figure out what the prevailing political winds are and what my boss believes. Emacs vs Vim is one of them, no matter how animated the debate is. Gender politics is not one of those contexts. There's a really significant difference there.
    - mcphage 9y ago
      > Emacs vs Vim is one of them, no matter how animated the debate is. Gender politics is not one of those contexts. There's a really significant difference there. Yes, you're right. There is a really significant difference between discussing Emacs vs Vim, and discussing gender differences. Which is to say: one is meaningless, and one affects the lives and livelihoods of half the population of our planet.
      - ThrustVectoring 9y ago
        Yup. That is, in fact, the justification used to make the tradeoff against the discussion norms I need in order to feel safe participating. The Cause is just so very Important, and that importance is used to justify all sorts of anti-social behavior. Shaming, lying, doxxing, no-platforming, not taking your opponent's arguments in good faith, and even physical violence. Please do not insinuate that I don't care about the lives and livelihoods of women. I do, and that's why I put as much effort as I do into thinking about and discussing community norms, discourse norms, and other meta-level stuff. I generally agree with the aims the social justice types want, disagree vehemently with the costs they're willing to impose on people to get them, and do not feel like I can safely participate non-anonymously to achieve either of those goals. Talking about discourse norms, at the very best, gets insinuations that I'm a Bad Person by misrepresenting me as being one of The Enemy. Working on object-level stuff enables some extraordinarily shitty behavior by The Good Guys. It's quite frustrating.
        mcphage 9y ago
        > Yup. That is, in fact, the justification used to make the tradeoff against the discussion norms I need in order to feel safe participating. Do you think it's not? And further: why do you need to participate? It isn't about you, it doesn't affect you. It's not your struggle, and it's not the kind of thing you can get anywhere deducing from first principles. If you don't feel safe contributing to the discussion, then don't contribute to the discussion. If there's a thread talking about some issue in C++ programming, I might read, but I don't contribute. I have plenty of opinions about C++, but no real experience, so I've got no place to participate in the discussion. And that's okay! I don't have to be involved in every discussion. > It's quite frustrating. You think you're frustrated, imagine how other people feel! "My opinion isn't valid or wanted" is a new feeling for you, but not a new feeling with to the women in your life. Maybe ask them how they handle it?

Not necessarily. Identity politics is when issues get defacto interpreted through the lens of social identities, even if that identity is irrelevant or even meaningless for the matter at hand. Observing that there is such a thing as nerd culture does not really qualify. It typifies a particular set of practices and norms that set it apart from more mainstream sensibilities.

ThrustVectoring 9y ago

Being a nerd hasn't been politicized anywhere near as much as being a woman, being an ethnic minority, or being LGBT. Furthermore, there's active efforts to shut down "problematic" parts of nerd culture. The recent Google fiasco with James Damore is a highly relevant example - creating a safe space for dispassionate debate about controversial ideas is the number one reason why I like nerd culture.

lordCarbonFiber 9y ago
Lol what nerd culture do you participate in. It's "dispassionate debate" until an outsider tries to participate and then it's fire and brimstone. So long as ideas "follow the narrative" (regardless on how grounded in evidence or just made up) nerd culture will accept you. Otherwise, it's probably the most toxic and politicized groups around.
mcphage 9y ago
Certainly nerd culture isn't famous for an endless litany of flame wars. Emacs vs vim, that's pro-wrestling, right?
- ThrustVectoring 9y ago
  Maybe "dispassionate" is the wrong word. Like, it's debates that are about ideas, not about people advancing the ideas or a power struggle between the underlying ideology. Or, like, Emacs vs Vim is all in good fun. The Emacs users don't try to get the Vim fanboys fired so that they don't spread pro-Vim heresy. There's some topics and environments where I feel safe speaking my mind before I figure out what the prevailing political winds are and what my boss believes. Emacs vs Vim is one of them, no matter how animated the debate is. Gender politics is not one of those contexts. There's a really significant difference there.
  - mcphage 9y ago
    > Emacs vs Vim is one of them, no matter how animated the debate is. Gender politics is not one of those contexts. There's a really significant difference there. Yes, you're right. There is a really significant difference between discussing Emacs vs Vim, and discussing gender differences. Which is to say: one is meaningless, and one affects the lives and livelihoods of half the population of our planet.
    - ThrustVectoring 9y ago
      Yup. That is, in fact, the justification used to make the tradeoff against the discussion norms I need in order to feel safe participating. The Cause is just so very Important, and that importance is used to justify all sorts of anti-social behavior. Shaming, lying, doxxing, no-platforming, not taking your opponent's arguments in good faith, and even physical violence. Please do not insinuate that I don't care about the lives and livelihoods of women. I do, and that's why I put as much effort as I do into thinking about and discussing community norms, discourse norms, and other meta-level stuff. I generally agree with the aims the social justice types want, disagree vehemently with the costs they're willing to impose on people to get them, and do not feel like I can safely participate non-anonymously to achieve either of those goals. Talking about discourse norms, at the very best, gets insinuations that I'm a Bad Person by misrepresenting me as being one of The Enemy. Working on object-level stuff enables some extraordinarily shitty behavior by The Good Guys. It's quite frustrating.
      - mcphage 9y ago
        > Yup. That is, in fact, the justification used to make the tradeoff against the discussion norms I need in order to feel safe participating. Do you think it's not? And further: why do you need to participate? It isn't about you, it doesn't affect you. It's not your struggle, and it's not the kind of thing you can get anywhere deducing from first principles. If you don't feel safe contributing to the discussion, then don't contribute to the discussion. If there's a thread talking about some issue in C++ programming, I might read, but I don't contribute. I have plenty of opinions about C++, but no real experience, so I've got no place to participate in the discussion. And that's okay! I don't have to be involved in every discussion. > It's quite frustrating. You think you're frustrated, imagine how other people feel! "My opinion isn't valid or wanted" is a new feeling for you, but not a new feeling with to the women in your life. Maybe ask them how they handle it?