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You don't argue with either side. Neither side has a recognition of the other's concerns. If you have close friends that are doctors or even nurses who will be

You don't argue with either side. Neither side has a recognition of the other's concerns. If you have close friends that are doctors or even nurses who will be candid with you, you quickly come to the realisation that the range of reactions to any vaccine is dependent on the many factors, including effectiveness of vaccine in each recipient (from totally effective and full immunity to total ineffectiveness and no additional immunity to detrimental effects). Some people react very badly to the current vaccines and when this is not recognised by those who are pro-vaccination, this just re-enforces the anti-vaccination viewpoint. As a child I was around others who were infectious with chicken pox, never got sick. But as an adult, I came close to dying from chicken pox that I got off my children. No reaction as a child but near deadly as an adult. Yet Tetanus vaccines (which I have had at various times) cause me no side effects at all, even though most people I know have a fairly severe pain reaction for a period of time after the injections. When it is not recognised that there have been manufacturing errors in various vaccines over time or that there are proportion of people who suffer very adverse effects from vaccines (up to and including death), this only goes to strengthened the viewpoint that vaccines are dangerous for those who are against vaccinations. I have come across various people who know that a specific vaccine would kill them or their children but have the viewpoint that everyone else must get vaccinated so that they (the unvaccinated) would be protected. Where we should be putting our research is to find some sort of standardised way to pre-test an individual for efficacy or adversity of any specific vaccine. There is no point giving a vaccine to someone who will have strongly adverse side-effects to it, nor is there any point in giving a vaccine to someone where that vaccine will provide no additional protection to the person. Too often, the excuse of "herd immunity" is used without thought to whether or not this actually true for any specific vaccine. The problem here is that, if the vaccine works and gives you immunity, then what reason are you concerned about that someone else hasn't had their shots, other than passing this disease onto other unvaccinated people. I don't bother with a flu shot. But if you want it, go for it. I know people who get sick every year after they have had their vaccines for the flu. I know of one fellow did this religiously every year and every year he got sick. After discussing this problem with his doctor, it was suggested that, over a period of three weeks, he get a one third dose. Since then, he hadn't got sick. Vaccines have made significant inroads into certain diseases that cause a great deal of grief for many in society. But no vaccine is 100% effective and every vaccine will adversely affect some proportion of the population (however small that might be). Instead of demonising those against vaccinations, maybe, this demonising should be against the companies that push the affordability of drugs and vaccines (and all the other related medical technology) beyond the capability of those who need it most just because they can and it will be most profitable to them to do so. Most have heard of Martin Shkreli and his antics with drug prices. What many don't realise is that he was just following the general principles of the drug manufacturers, he was just a little too obvious about it.

Mz 9y ago
^ This. The crux of the issue is that people who are rabidly pro vax and people who are rabidly anti vax are both equally guilty of disregarding the valid concerns of the other side. This fact means neither is willing to consider a more nuanced discussion concerning when vaccines make sense and when they don't. Laws in the US generally try to balance the needs of the many versus individual rights. So, for example, if we need to put in a new highway, we don't simply willy nilly throw people out of their homes. There are processes in place for trying to decide where and how to build it with the least impact, then there are processes for compensating them. We need to figure out how to do the same with vaccines, but that conversation mostly is not happening because most people talking about it are talking in absolutes. And, in their mind, if you aren't for them, you are against them. Thus, no reasonable discussion can be had. Pro vaxxers and anti vaxxers are equally guilty of ascribing to a one size fits all solution and being extremists. This is why someone like me, who has gotten vaccines for some things but has foregone them for others, is given hell by both sides.
- oldandtired 9y ago
  Agreed. But be assured that there are more in the middle ground than there appear on the surface.
  - Mz 9y ago
    Thank you for saying that. I needed to hear that more than I expected.
b_emery 9y ago
I have several doctors in my family, some even in public health and what you say is true, yes some people have been harmed by vaccines, and even killed. These are basic facts available to anyone with an internet connection. The manufacturers of the vaccines should be monitored and kept in line, like any manufacturer of medication (or food for that matter). Many of the vaccines that I am familiar with are low cost if not subsidized to the point of free - so I'm not sure that the drug pricing scams you discuss apply here. The point missing from this discussion is the basic principle that doctors are applying when then recommend vaccination: that the chance of harm from the vaccine is much less than the chance of harm from the disease. Senior citizens, pregnant women and children < 1 yr routinely die from the flu - at rates much greater than the deaths from the flu shot. Discussing it with a trained medical Doctor is a great idea which I recommend. It must always be remembered that each treatment is a separate experiment and should be monitored accordingly.

Mz 9y ago

^ This. The crux of the issue is that people who are rabidly pro vax and people who are rabidly anti vax are both equally guilty of disregarding the valid concerns of the other side. This fact means neither is willing to consider a more nuanced discussion concerning when vaccines make sense and when they don't. Laws in the US generally try to balance the needs of the many versus individual rights. So, for example, if we need to put in a new highway, we don't simply willy nilly throw people out of their homes. There are processes in place for trying to decide where and how to build it with the least impact, then there are processes for compensating them. We need to figure out how to do the same with vaccines, but that conversation mostly is not happening because most people talking about it are talking in absolutes. And, in their mind, if you aren't for them, you are against them. Thus, no reasonable discussion can be had. Pro vaxxers and anti vaxxers are equally guilty of ascribing to a one size fits all solution and being extremists. This is why someone like me, who has gotten vaccines for some things but has foregone them for others, is given hell by both sides.

oldandtired 9y ago
Agreed. But be assured that there are more in the middle ground than there appear on the surface.
- Mz 9y ago
  Thank you for saying that. I needed to hear that more than I expected.

b_emery 9y ago

I have several doctors in my family, some even in public health and what you say is true, yes some people have been harmed by vaccines, and even killed. These are basic facts available to anyone with an internet connection. The manufacturers of the vaccines should be monitored and kept in line, like any manufacturer of medication (or food for that matter). Many of the vaccines that I am familiar with are low cost if not subsidized to the point of free - so I'm not sure that the drug pricing scams you discuss apply here. The point missing from this discussion is the basic principle that doctors are applying when then recommend vaccination: that the chance of harm from the vaccine is much less than the chance of harm from the disease. Senior citizens, pregnant women and children < 1 yr routinely die from the flu - at rates much greater than the deaths from the flu shot. Discussing it with a trained medical Doctor is a great idea which I recommend. It must always be remembered that each treatment is a separate experiment and should be monitored accordingly.