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Are you saying that just because its a distant culture, and they're not calling 'us' out, (though all cultures do that to each other), its 'OK'? I can understan

Are you saying that just because its a distant culture, and they're not calling 'us' out, (though all cultures do that to each other), its 'OK'? I can understand differences in culture that can be real annoying, or feel wrong, but the actual product is perfectly good. Here, we're talking about lolicon, and Japans obsession with it that has become more and more normalized. The argument usually is that its not real, which, is true, and I'd argue that if its not real, to leave it in a gray area. But, when you normalize something that in reality is always illigal, there's a big problem. I'm talking about normalizing as in, commonly broadcasted shows have no problem with sexualization of children and making it seem romantic realtionships with middle schoolers and adults is 'cute' and normal. There's a really NSFW talk about this from demolitionD that I mostly agree with: https://youtu.be/Owa5KcQ9Mxc https://youtu.be/Owa5KcQ9Mxc Now, I don't agree with this video on that an innate attraction makes you a bad person, or a pedophile, I do agree that normalization of such things into the mainstream inevitably leads to real-life action and lack of enforcement when said terrible actions happen.

ue_ 9y ago
>Here, we're talking about lolicon, and Japans obsession with it that has become more and more normalized. Is "Japan" obsessed with it, or just a subculture native to that country (i.e otaku)? >The argument usually is that its not real, which, is true, and I'd argue that if its not real, to leave it in a gray area. Why? Films/books/comics/stories/etc. depicting drug use, murder, rape etc. are indeed "not real", yet few would have a problem with this. It seems to me that we are returning to the age when violent video games are considered "gray area", which is how the stone starts rolling towards their unreasonable and evidence-lacking censorship. >But, when you normalize something that in reality is always illigal, there's a big problem. Is there any evidence that this is a big problem in this instance? And further, what of other instances such as the ones I have outlined? >making it seem romantic realtionships with middle schoolers and adults is 'cute' and normal. Many people do find them cute. Not I, but people do. This does not mean that they are persuaded to act upon that cuteness. Being portrayed as normal in fiction makes no reference to how normal it is considered in real life. I can assure you that most Japanese know that such relationships are not normal, just as I know that what happens in the Simpsons isn't normal. Where's your evidence for this? I watched this video a while ago. It mainly applies to TV and media which is widely circulated. However it is possible to have the material legal for purposes aside from distribution such as on TV. Currently in the UK and other countries, especially Canada, we are at the situation where mere possession is illegal. >nevitably leads to real-life action and lack of enforcement when said terrible actions happen. Does it? There is evidence I have seen that is contrary to this hypothesis, here's one: http://openjournals.maastrichtuniversity.nl/Marble/article/viewFile/374/317 http://openjournals.maastrichtuniversity.nl/Marble/article/v... There are others, but my current Google-fu is failing me, so my apologies.
falcolas 9y ago
> But, when you normalize something that in reality is always illigal, there's a big problem. I agree! It's despicible how commonplace murder and torture have become in mainstream media. I mean, come on. I've watched PG13 shows that display the main characters wantonly destroying buildings in the name of "good". Another time, they killed off the population of an entire city, again in the name of good. And we give our children books that depict distopian scenes where children are forced to fight each other to death to appease the masses, or where they're forced to kill some "evil" queen in a twisted representation of Christian ideals. Despicable, all of it! /s Yeah, we as Americans or Europeans have no room to condemn Japan with this reasoning.
- devwastaken 9y ago
  >I agree! It's despicible how commonplace murder and torture have become in mainstream media. Except, those things are purposely portrayed as bad. In this case, lolicon is portrayed as a normal and good thing. And, you're making a false comparison because torture and murder are nowhere near as common and lustful as sexual and emotional abuse of individuals, young or not. Normalization in causation to action requires that the actions already be happening and already be acceptable to some extent, and from there it becomes more wide-spread. There are such slipperly slopes in life when we feel the need to do things that cannot be allowed. >And we give our children books that depict distopian scenes where children are forced to fight each other to death to appease the masses Again, distopian, which is very differnt from your own culture or beliefs. You know its supposed to be wrong.
  - DanBC 9y ago
    > Except, those things are purposely portrayed as bad. They're frequently, especially in US TV and film, portrayed as good things done by the good guys.
  - etplayer 9y ago
    >Except, those things are purposely portrayed as bad. Many lolicon manga do the same. Why is whether or not it is portrayed as bad the problem? Many are actually made interesting by portraying the siuation as morally ambiguous, such as in popular television shows. >nowhere near as common and lustful as sexual and emotional abuse of individuals, young or not. Why is that relevant? >Normalization in causation to action requires that the actions already be happening and already be acceptable to some extent Murder, violence, and war already happen, and war is acceptable (to most, though not I) - yet we have people who complain that violent videogames "normalise" violent beahviour. You haven't really provided evidence that (i) this "normalisation" is bad (beacuse this would be implying that it's bad for people to think or have opinions in a certain way) (ii) this "normalisation" has any effect upon the incidence of violent crimes, sexual or not. >Again, distopian, which is very differnt from your own culture or beliefs. Sherlock and House probably "normalises" drug use, even though it's set in present conditions. There are probably other examples of people doing bad things that are portrayed in media, but I'm not well versed enough in popular culture to give examples. I'm still not so sure why being dystopic has any effect or not. Would it follow that if lolicon TV/manga/art was set in a dystopic universe like the Hunger Games, it would be fine for you? Or if the argument is based on being realistic, what is there to say of the many non-realistic things that happen in lolicon TV/manga/art, and indeed the unrealistic body proportions? Many, many anime are set with large towering robots controlled by little girls, for example. Finally, many lolicon manga portray what is happening in a sad or twisted light, similar to how Breaking Bad shows Walt's activity, for example. There is one manga in which a girl is violently raped by a man claiming to check radiation levels in her house, for example. And this is of course ignoring the fact that many people are attracted to the material beacuse it is taboo in the first place, which is what's behind many kinks you or I would consider normal. As such, they don't want to make it real.
mirimir 9y ago
> But, when you normalize something that in reality is always illigal, there's a big problem. It wasn't always illegal. It's not that children in Japan have been, or are being, sexualized. It's that children in American culture have been desexualized. I remember what I wanted when I was twelve, after all ;)
- 0xcde4c3db 9y ago
  Indeed, the modern concept of childhood being a distinct and uniquely valuable stage of life is fairly recent, owing a lot to Victorian culture and Freudian psychology. Most of the laws specifically focused on protecting children only date back to the late 19th or early 20th centuries. The idea that childhood extends to 18 years old, implying that adolescence is actually part of childhood, is even more recent. I don't remember the term for it, but some cultural critics have described a more general pattern of certain populations being set aside as "innocents". These people are then to be protected from being "corrupted" by the harsh realities of the sinful world. The flip side of this special status is that they're treated as intrinsically naive and not capable of having meaningful opinions, possibly even on the subject of their own needs and desires.
  - mirimir 9y ago
    > The flip side of this special status is that they're treated as intrinsically naive and not capable of having meaningful opinions, possibly even on the subject of their own needs and desires. That's certainly how it occurred for me, as a child. And indeed, adults are now treated similarly, in some ways. I've found Lloyd DeMause's work to be enlightening.

ue_ 9y ago

>Here, we're talking about lolicon, and Japans obsession with it that has become more and more normalized. Is "Japan" obsessed with it, or just a subculture native to that country (i.e otaku)? >The argument usually is that its not real, which, is true, and I'd argue that if its not real, to leave it in a gray area. Why? Films/books/comics/stories/etc. depicting drug use, murder, rape etc. are indeed "not real", yet few would have a problem with this. It seems to me that we are returning to the age when violent video games are considered "gray area", which is how the stone starts rolling towards their unreasonable and evidence-lacking censorship. >But, when you normalize something that in reality is always illigal, there's a big problem. Is there any evidence that this is a big problem in this instance? And further, what of other instances such as the ones I have outlined? >making it seem romantic realtionships with middle schoolers and adults is 'cute' and normal. Many people do find them cute. Not I, but people do. This does not mean that they are persuaded to act upon that cuteness. Being portrayed as normal in fiction makes no reference to how normal it is considered in real life. I can assure you that most Japanese know that such relationships are not normal, just as I know that what happens in the Simpsons isn't normal. Where's your evidence for this? I watched this video a while ago. It mainly applies to TV and media which is widely circulated. However it is possible to have the material legal for purposes aside from distribution such as on TV. Currently in the UK and other countries, especially Canada, we are at the situation where mere possession is illegal. >nevitably leads to real-life action and lack of enforcement when said terrible actions happen. Does it? There is evidence I have seen that is contrary to this hypothesis, here's one: http://openjournals.maastrichtuniversity.nl/Marble/article/viewFile/374/317 http://openjournals.maastrichtuniversity.nl/Marble/article/v... There are others, but my current Google-fu is failing me, so my apologies.

falcolas 9y ago

> But, when you normalize something that in reality is always illigal, there's a big problem. I agree! It's despicible how commonplace murder and torture have become in mainstream media. I mean, come on. I've watched PG13 shows that display the main characters wantonly destroying buildings in the name of "good". Another time, they killed off the population of an entire city, again in the name of good. And we give our children books that depict distopian scenes where children are forced to fight each other to death to appease the masses, or where they're forced to kill some "evil" queen in a twisted representation of Christian ideals. Despicable, all of it! /s Yeah, we as Americans or Europeans have no room to condemn Japan with this reasoning.

devwastaken 9y ago
>I agree! It's despicible how commonplace murder and torture have become in mainstream media. Except, those things are purposely portrayed as bad. In this case, lolicon is portrayed as a normal and good thing. And, you're making a false comparison because torture and murder are nowhere near as common and lustful as sexual and emotional abuse of individuals, young or not. Normalization in causation to action requires that the actions already be happening and already be acceptable to some extent, and from there it becomes more wide-spread. There are such slipperly slopes in life when we feel the need to do things that cannot be allowed. >And we give our children books that depict distopian scenes where children are forced to fight each other to death to appease the masses Again, distopian, which is very differnt from your own culture or beliefs. You know its supposed to be wrong.
- DanBC 9y ago
  > Except, those things are purposely portrayed as bad. They're frequently, especially in US TV and film, portrayed as good things done by the good guys.
- etplayer 9y ago
  >Except, those things are purposely portrayed as bad. Many lolicon manga do the same. Why is whether or not it is portrayed as bad the problem? Many are actually made interesting by portraying the siuation as morally ambiguous, such as in popular television shows. >nowhere near as common and lustful as sexual and emotional abuse of individuals, young or not. Why is that relevant? >Normalization in causation to action requires that the actions already be happening and already be acceptable to some extent Murder, violence, and war already happen, and war is acceptable (to most, though not I) - yet we have people who complain that violent videogames "normalise" violent beahviour. You haven't really provided evidence that (i) this "normalisation" is bad (beacuse this would be implying that it's bad for people to think or have opinions in a certain way) (ii) this "normalisation" has any effect upon the incidence of violent crimes, sexual or not. >Again, distopian, which is very differnt from your own culture or beliefs. Sherlock and House probably "normalises" drug use, even though it's set in present conditions. There are probably other examples of people doing bad things that are portrayed in media, but I'm not well versed enough in popular culture to give examples. I'm still not so sure why being dystopic has any effect or not. Would it follow that if lolicon TV/manga/art was set in a dystopic universe like the Hunger Games, it would be fine for you? Or if the argument is based on being realistic, what is there to say of the many non-realistic things that happen in lolicon TV/manga/art, and indeed the unrealistic body proportions? Many, many anime are set with large towering robots controlled by little girls, for example. Finally, many lolicon manga portray what is happening in a sad or twisted light, similar to how Breaking Bad shows Walt's activity, for example. There is one manga in which a girl is violently raped by a man claiming to check radiation levels in her house, for example. And this is of course ignoring the fact that many people are attracted to the material beacuse it is taboo in the first place, which is what's behind many kinks you or I would consider normal. As such, they don't want to make it real.

mirimir 9y ago

> But, when you normalize something that in reality is always illigal, there's a big problem. It wasn't always illegal. It's not that children in Japan have been, or are being, sexualized. It's that children in American culture have been desexualized. I remember what I wanted when I was twelve, after all ;)

0xcde4c3db 9y ago
Indeed, the modern concept of childhood being a distinct and uniquely valuable stage of life is fairly recent, owing a lot to Victorian culture and Freudian psychology. Most of the laws specifically focused on protecting children only date back to the late 19th or early 20th centuries. The idea that childhood extends to 18 years old, implying that adolescence is actually part of childhood, is even more recent. I don't remember the term for it, but some cultural critics have described a more general pattern of certain populations being set aside as "innocents". These people are then to be protected from being "corrupted" by the harsh realities of the sinful world. The flip side of this special status is that they're treated as intrinsically naive and not capable of having meaningful opinions, possibly even on the subject of their own needs and desires.
- mirimir 9y ago
  > The flip side of this special status is that they're treated as intrinsically naive and not capable of having meaningful opinions, possibly even on the subject of their own needs and desires. That's certainly how it occurred for me, as a child. And indeed, adults are now treated similarly, in some ways. I've found Lloyd DeMause's work to be enlightening.