8 ms·

I have lived in Japan since I was quite young (late 20s now) and don't see what the problem with lolicon is. It's not my thing, but if someone enjoys it that's

I have lived in Japan since I was quite young (late 20s now) and don't see what the problem with lolicon is. It's not my thing, but if someone enjoys it that's their business, they aren't hurting anyone. That's just my gut feeling on the matter, I'm interested in hearing others' thoughts.

cyphar 9y ago
I'm from Australia. I personally don't find it morally objectionable (because it's not hurting anyone) though I would consider it to be a grey area. I believe that lolicon is illegal here (or at the very least not explicitly legal), because it's effectively a depiction of child pornography. That's the reason most people find it objectionable, effectively due to the (entirely justified) taboo around underage sexuality and the worry it will lead more real child pornography.
- ue_ 9y ago
  It is very much illegal, as is stories depicting it. Here's an Australian supreme court of the Northern Territory case describing such a ruling: http://www.supremecourt.nt.gov.au/documents/judgements/2014/NTSC53.pdf http://www.supremecourt.nt.gov.au/documents/judgements/2014/... It is also illegal in Canada (similarly with stories), some US states, some European countries, and England, Wales and Northern Ireland (though only drawings rather than stories as far as I know). I think such laws are hideous.
  - cyphar 9y ago
    Yeah, now I remember reading the news about that case a few years ago. I think that decision is understandable, though I don't agree with classifying something that is obviously not child pornography as "child pornography". Also note that in Australia "supreme court" does not mean that its rulings determine federal common law, that rests with the High Court of Australia (the next court up)[1]. So on paper, other States could have different laws on the topic (but I haven't checked whether the case was appealed to the High Court). [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judiciary_of_Australia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judiciary_of_Australia
    - etplayer 9y ago
      Thank you for your information on the system, I had no idea, I'm only vaguely familiar with the system in England and Wales. It's worth noting, however, that the fact it is illegal is specified in the state code rather than being decided by this court case. There is a similar case which I think is rather silly that a man in Australia was convicted of having 'Simpsons porn' which featured two underage characters from the Simpsons.
      - cyphar 9y ago
        > It's worth noting, however, that the fact it is illegal is specified in the state code rather than being decided by this court case. Ah, you're right (I didn't read the whole document). In case you're interested, in other states there is a different criminal code (called the Crimes Act (1990) in NSW)[1]. The section on "child abuse material" (15A) is quite vague on what limits there are for something being "material depicting child abuse" and there is also a catch-all statement saying that something is also considered child abuse material based on " the standards of morality, decency and propriety generally accepted by reasonable adults". In general I would be surprised if it was legal in any state. I also checked, and it's considered "objectionable material" in New Zeland[2]. [1]: https://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/inforce/a0a6239c-5e99-6ad0-fe6a-9d1efad30e4f/1900-40.pdf https://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/inforce/a0a6239c-5e99-6ad... [2]: http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1993/0094/latest/whole.html#DLM313407 http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1993/0094/latest/w...
- Retric 9y ago
  As another poster points out Japan does not have a higher rate of actual child sexual abuse. So, does the lack of any actual harm influence your opinion?
  - cyphar 9y ago
    You have to take into account that in Asian countries the reporting of sexual abuse is likely much lower because of social stigmatization. From what I've heard second-hand it's perceived as being shameful for your family to be a victim of such abuse, and I imagine that would affect the statistics. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with whether it causes actual child sexual abuse, it's just something to consider.
  - mcguire 9y ago
    Be careful when comparing crime rates between countries. Japan, in particular, has...odd statistics. http://articles.latimes.com/2007/nov/09/world/fg-autopsy9 http://articles.latimes.com/2007/nov/09/world/fg-autopsy9 Further, sex crimes are...different everywhere. https://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2014/12/08/voices/foreign-students-account-treatment-rape-case-points-gaps-japans-safety-myth/#.WZh1PDe1thE https://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2014/12/08/voices/for...
    - Retric 9y ago
      There is some bias in that reporting. The US rate of autopsy 8.5 percent the Japan rate is 11.2%. So, if your comparing the US with Japan it's the US that's more likely to miss something based on national rates. As to the second, US rape victims are often told not to report and prison rapes are frequently just ignored. From a sociology standpoint you need to be careful when doing cross country comparisons. But, reported statistics are not simply accepted at face value.
      - mcguire 9y ago
        The US rate of 8.1% (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db67.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db67.htm) is for all deaths. The Japanese rate of 11.7% (https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2016/02/27/editorials/troubling-low-autopsy-rate/#.WZtHoje1thE https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2016/02/27/editorials/t...) is for "unusual deaths". (Yeah, I wish I could find better figures, but all I get are abstracts for papers about the reasons for Japan's low rate of autopsies; the papers are behind paywalls.)
kristofferR 9y ago
Yeah, I couldn't find anything during a quick search that indicates that Japan has a higher rate of child sexual abuse than countries where ethical/drawn child pornograpy is banned.
- cyphar 9y ago
  I would be interested to know if the reason why (to put it bluntly) porn in Japan is so extreme is due to their cultural repression of sexuality. The reason I ask is that many Asian countries have similar social stigmas around sexuality, and they also have similarly extreme forms of porn. Not to mention the existence of hentai, yuri, and ecchi. All of which don't really have widespread western equivalents, despite western cartoons being fairly popular.
  - rangibaby 9y ago
    How is sexuality repressed in Japan? Hentai etc are descendants of shunga pics; you've probably seen Hokusai's "The Great Wave Off Kanagawa". You may have seen "The Dream of The Fishermans Wife" (NSFW)
    - krrrh 9y ago
      GP was saying that sexuality as in actual sex is repressed, and speculating that pornography was widespread as a result.
    - agumonkey 9y ago
      In social interactions maybe ? Japan seemed to be a very repressive/elitist society. You had to be polite in everything, and sexuality is often the opposite of that (you could probably have sex through polite chat beforehand, but I'm sure it requires maturity that most people don't have)
      - thevardanian 9y ago
        Just because people have a different view of sexuality, and confine it to a specific time and place, doesn't mean that it's a repressive society. You have to realize that most Asian cultures are heavily focused on context, and place, and not just the pure, isolated act.
moogleii 9y ago
I admittedly find it bizarre, to say the least. But the opinions and discourse here are definitely challenging my intolerance. I also haven't lived in Japan, so I can only repeat an observation I read from someone who had, which was that the consumption of this type of media or cartoon rape-porn seemed to be fairly acceptable to do in public (openly reading such content in a crowded subway for instance was not uncommon). Which could reasonably make people feel uncomfortable or belittled, especially if you're in the same class of fictionally victimized people. On the other hand, I suppose people in the States are free to walk around wearing swastikas. So, I guess the takeaway is that, in either scenario, you're just an asshole legally exercising your rights?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- rangibaby 9y ago
  Making a scene in public is considered to be immature here, so most of the time people ignore "deviant" behavior on the subway. Making someone (especially the kind of person who watches porn on a train) lose face by shaming then is likely to make that person very, very angry.
userbinator 9y ago
It seems the distinction between real child porn and lolicon that Japan has made, could be summarised as "thoughtcrime is not crime".
- convery 9y ago
  I feel that we, as a society, should try to apply this idea in a lot of areas..
- agumonkey 9y ago
  That's one factor, the other is the culture around youth appeal through drawings. Mangas were filled with teenage erotism. So lolicon is not a huge stretch from there.
- snakeanus 9y ago
  Isn't viewing child porn also a thoughtcrime? Obviously this would apply only to viewing it and not creating it. If I am not mistaken Japan illegalised viewing CP in ~2009 but distributing it was illegal beforehand.
wongarsu 9y ago
Child sexual abuse is bad because it's traumatizing children (also sexual abuse is bad, duh). But "curing" pedophiles seems to be hard, similarly to how you can't "cure" homosexuals. Child porn would supposedly be a safe outlet for pedophiles, at the cost of possibly eroding social taboos around child sexual abuse. But the tradeoff is irrelevant, because the production of child porn is usually exploiting and abusing children, making it morally bad. Lolicon doesn't harm any children. The only potential harm left is eroding helpful social taboos. But that seems easy enough to fix: make lolicon legal, but semi-taboo. If it's not seen as normal, it doesn't normalize anything, and you have all the positives without the negatives. So I will view you as weird if you enjoy lolicon, but I don't have a problem with it. I would even advocate for its existence. Somewhat related, I also can't really justify the US standard for child porn. Nude pictures of 10 year olds are bad and should be illegal. But what is the harm in nudes of 17 year olds?
- nsaslideface 9y ago
  Children and young people getting a hold of lolicon comics, where pedophilia is normalized through the story, can harm them for life. No one seems to have the imagination to think about this. Adults looking at it is of course harmless, but don't make it easily available on the internet. If you do I'd say you're acting immorally and I support legal repercussions. I know people who have been messed up when they were very young and found it.
  - kijin 9y ago
    One might argue that the reason people get messed up if they are exposed to certain types of content at a young age is not because of the nature of the content itself, but because of other people's response (or lack thereof) to it. When everyone else is either judging you or trying too hard to pretend that nothing happened, you internalize a sort of guilt or shame that can haunt you for life. People who have seen terrible shit in their childhood but turned out okay, on the other hand, often report that they had someone to help them understand what was happening without rushing to a judgment.
    - 9y ago

cyphar 9y ago

I'm from Australia. I personally don't find it morally objectionable (because it's not hurting anyone) though I would consider it to be a grey area. I believe that lolicon is illegal here (or at the very least not explicitly legal), because it's effectively a depiction of child pornography. That's the reason most people find it objectionable, effectively due to the (entirely justified) taboo around underage sexuality and the worry it will lead more real child pornography.

ue_ 9y ago
It is very much illegal, as is stories depicting it. Here's an Australian supreme court of the Northern Territory case describing such a ruling: http://www.supremecourt.nt.gov.au/documents/judgements/2014/NTSC53.pdf http://www.supremecourt.nt.gov.au/documents/judgements/2014/... It is also illegal in Canada (similarly with stories), some US states, some European countries, and England, Wales and Northern Ireland (though only drawings rather than stories as far as I know). I think such laws are hideous.
- cyphar 9y ago
  Yeah, now I remember reading the news about that case a few years ago. I think that decision is understandable, though I don't agree with classifying something that is obviously not child pornography as "child pornography". Also note that in Australia "supreme court" does not mean that its rulings determine federal common law, that rests with the High Court of Australia (the next court up)[1]. So on paper, other States could have different laws on the topic (but I haven't checked whether the case was appealed to the High Court). [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judiciary_of_Australia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judiciary_of_Australia
  - etplayer 9y ago
    Thank you for your information on the system, I had no idea, I'm only vaguely familiar with the system in England and Wales. It's worth noting, however, that the fact it is illegal is specified in the state code rather than being decided by this court case. There is a similar case which I think is rather silly that a man in Australia was convicted of having 'Simpsons porn' which featured two underage characters from the Simpsons.
    - cyphar 9y ago
      > It's worth noting, however, that the fact it is illegal is specified in the state code rather than being decided by this court case. Ah, you're right (I didn't read the whole document). In case you're interested, in other states there is a different criminal code (called the Crimes Act (1990) in NSW)[1]. The section on "child abuse material" (15A) is quite vague on what limits there are for something being "material depicting child abuse" and there is also a catch-all statement saying that something is also considered child abuse material based on " the standards of morality, decency and propriety generally accepted by reasonable adults". In general I would be surprised if it was legal in any state. I also checked, and it's considered "objectionable material" in New Zeland[2]. [1]: https://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/inforce/a0a6239c-5e99-6ad0-fe6a-9d1efad30e4f/1900-40.pdf https://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/inforce/a0a6239c-5e99-6ad... [2]: http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1993/0094/latest/whole.html#DLM313407 http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1993/0094/latest/w...
Retric 9y ago
As another poster points out Japan does not have a higher rate of actual child sexual abuse. So, does the lack of any actual harm influence your opinion?
- cyphar 9y ago
  You have to take into account that in Asian countries the reporting of sexual abuse is likely much lower because of social stigmatization. From what I've heard second-hand it's perceived as being shameful for your family to be a victim of such abuse, and I imagine that would affect the statistics. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with whether it causes actual child sexual abuse, it's just something to consider.
- mcguire 9y ago
  Be careful when comparing crime rates between countries. Japan, in particular, has...odd statistics. http://articles.latimes.com/2007/nov/09/world/fg-autopsy9 http://articles.latimes.com/2007/nov/09/world/fg-autopsy9 Further, sex crimes are...different everywhere. https://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2014/12/08/voices/foreign-students-account-treatment-rape-case-points-gaps-japans-safety-myth/#.WZh1PDe1thE https://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2014/12/08/voices/for...
  - Retric 9y ago
    There is some bias in that reporting. The US rate of autopsy 8.5 percent the Japan rate is 11.2%. So, if your comparing the US with Japan it's the US that's more likely to miss something based on national rates. As to the second, US rape victims are often told not to report and prison rapes are frequently just ignored. From a sociology standpoint you need to be careful when doing cross country comparisons. But, reported statistics are not simply accepted at face value.
    - mcguire 9y ago
      The US rate of 8.1% (https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db67.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db67.htm) is for all deaths. The Japanese rate of 11.7% (https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2016/02/27/editorials/troubling-low-autopsy-rate/#.WZtHoje1thE https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2016/02/27/editorials/t...) is for "unusual deaths". (Yeah, I wish I could find better figures, but all I get are abstracts for papers about the reasons for Japan's low rate of autopsies; the papers are behind paywalls.)

kristofferR 9y ago

Yeah, I couldn't find anything during a quick search that indicates that Japan has a higher rate of child sexual abuse than countries where ethical/drawn child pornograpy is banned.

cyphar 9y ago
I would be interested to know if the reason why (to put it bluntly) porn in Japan is so extreme is due to their cultural repression of sexuality. The reason I ask is that many Asian countries have similar social stigmas around sexuality, and they also have similarly extreme forms of porn. Not to mention the existence of hentai, yuri, and ecchi. All of which don't really have widespread western equivalents, despite western cartoons being fairly popular.
- rangibaby 9y ago
  How is sexuality repressed in Japan? Hentai etc are descendants of shunga pics; you've probably seen Hokusai's "The Great Wave Off Kanagawa". You may have seen "The Dream of The Fishermans Wife" (NSFW)
  - krrrh 9y ago
    GP was saying that sexuality as in actual sex is repressed, and speculating that pornography was widespread as a result.
  - agumonkey 9y ago
    In social interactions maybe ? Japan seemed to be a very repressive/elitist society. You had to be polite in everything, and sexuality is often the opposite of that (you could probably have sex through polite chat beforehand, but I'm sure it requires maturity that most people don't have)
    - thevardanian 9y ago
      Just because people have a different view of sexuality, and confine it to a specific time and place, doesn't mean that it's a repressive society. You have to realize that most Asian cultures are heavily focused on context, and place, and not just the pure, isolated act.

moogleii 9y ago

I admittedly find it bizarre, to say the least. But the opinions and discourse here are definitely challenging my intolerance. I also haven't lived in Japan, so I can only repeat an observation I read from someone who had, which was that the consumption of this type of media or cartoon rape-porn seemed to be fairly acceptable to do in public (openly reading such content in a crowded subway for instance was not uncommon). Which could reasonably make people feel uncomfortable or belittled, especially if you're in the same class of fictionally victimized people. On the other hand, I suppose people in the States are free to walk around wearing swastikas. So, I guess the takeaway is that, in either scenario, you're just an asshole legally exercising your rights?

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
rangibaby 9y ago
Making a scene in public is considered to be immature here, so most of the time people ignore "deviant" behavior on the subway. Making someone (especially the kind of person who watches porn on a train) lose face by shaming then is likely to make that person very, very angry.

userbinator 9y ago

It seems the distinction between real child porn and lolicon that Japan has made, could be summarised as "thoughtcrime is not crime".

convery 9y ago
I feel that we, as a society, should try to apply this idea in a lot of areas..
agumonkey 9y ago
That's one factor, the other is the culture around youth appeal through drawings. Mangas were filled with teenage erotism. So lolicon is not a huge stretch from there.
snakeanus 9y ago
Isn't viewing child porn also a thoughtcrime? Obviously this would apply only to viewing it and not creating it. If I am not mistaken Japan illegalised viewing CP in ~2009 but distributing it was illegal beforehand.

wongarsu 9y ago

Child sexual abuse is bad because it's traumatizing children (also sexual abuse is bad, duh). But "curing" pedophiles seems to be hard, similarly to how you can't "cure" homosexuals. Child porn would supposedly be a safe outlet for pedophiles, at the cost of possibly eroding social taboos around child sexual abuse. But the tradeoff is irrelevant, because the production of child porn is usually exploiting and abusing children, making it morally bad. Lolicon doesn't harm any children. The only potential harm left is eroding helpful social taboos. But that seems easy enough to fix: make lolicon legal, but semi-taboo. If it's not seen as normal, it doesn't normalize anything, and you have all the positives without the negatives. So I will view you as weird if you enjoy lolicon, but I don't have a problem with it. I would even advocate for its existence. Somewhat related, I also can't really justify the US standard for child porn. Nude pictures of 10 year olds are bad and should be illegal. But what is the harm in nudes of 17 year olds?

nsaslideface 9y ago
Children and young people getting a hold of lolicon comics, where pedophilia is normalized through the story, can harm them for life. No one seems to have the imagination to think about this. Adults looking at it is of course harmless, but don't make it easily available on the internet. If you do I'd say you're acting immorally and I support legal repercussions. I know people who have been messed up when they were very young and found it.
- kijin 9y ago
  One might argue that the reason people get messed up if they are exposed to certain types of content at a young age is not because of the nature of the content itself, but because of other people's response (or lack thereof) to it. When everyone else is either judging you or trying too hard to pretend that nothing happened, you internalize a sort of guilt or shame that can haunt you for life. People who have seen terrible shit in their childhood but turned out okay, on the other hand, often report that they had someone to help them understand what was happening without rushing to a judgment.
  - 9y ago