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That's simply false. It cannot happen. How many times does this need to be explained? It's been discussed a ton, the plain language of the license makes that

by Lazare 9y ago

That's simply false. It cannot happen. How many times does this need to be explained? It's been discussed a ton, the plain language of the license makes that clear, Facebook even covered this in their official React license FAQ (https://code.facebook.com/pages/850928938376556 https://code.facebook.com/pages/850928938376556). Please stop spreading FUD.

doctorless 9y ago
I think we read a different FAQ, or I'm misreading your link. The FAQ says that if Facebook sues _you_ for patent infringement and you counter sue for patent infringement that they won't revoke your license, but I don't see anything that answers the parent comment's concern.
- Lazare 9y ago
  > Does termination of the additional patent grant in the Facebook BSD+Patents license cause the copyright license to also terminate? > No. In short, if you get into a patent dispute with them, your license to use React does not terminate. So when someone says "if you sue you will lose your rights to use react" this is wrong. My rights to use React come from the BSD license, not from the patent grant.
  - gstein67 9y ago
    Exactly. You'll be using the React code under the BSD license but without any patent grants.
  - doctorless 9y ago
    It's not entirely wrong. If you get into a patent dispute with them, you lose the patent grant to React, which means if they have any (none have been seen yet) patents related to React, they can very quickly countersue you, making the patent suit from your end, while still valid, a guaranteed financial ruin for any business not on their scale. We're not saying the license + patents combination explicitly grants Facebook the right to infringe on your patents, but rather it's a trap clause that makes it impossible to survive a patent lawsuit against them by virtue of using React, which in _effect_ is like a patent grant back to them.
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jnbiche 9y ago
Is this is true, then why the hell is Facebook digging in like this? They're going to ruin their hard-earned open source creds for very little gain.
- Lazare 9y ago
  Probably because they don't care. They created React to solve a problem they had, they open sourced it 'cause why not, some people adopted it, some people didn't...Facebook doesn't care either way. They're not an open source company, and they don't really care how many startups use React, or how many Github stars they+ have. They don't rely on external users for testing, or external devs for contributions. It's not so much they're "digging in" in the face of criticism, as they simply haven't noticed the criticism, because it has no relevance to Facebook at the level where corporate policy is set. Or so I believe. :)
  - jnbiche 9y ago
    > ...Facebook doesn't care either way I disagree. There are clearly a lot of people who evangelize React and other open source projects. It helps a lot with recruitment and Facebook's public relations among devs. I just don't think the attorneys grasp how much this is affecting other parts of the company.
koolba 9y ago
From the linked FAQ: >> Does the additional patent grant in the Facebook BSD+Patents license terminate if I sue Facebook for something other than patent infringement? > No. >> Does the additional patent grant in the Facebook BSD+Patents license terminate if Facebook sues me for patent infringement first, and then I respond with a patent counterclaim against Facebook? > No, unless your patent counterclaim is related to Facebook's software licensed under the Facebook BSD+Patents license. My interpretation of that is if I use React I can't sue Facebook for any patent violations lest they pull their React patent licenses and immediately sue me for infringement.
- Lazare 9y ago
  > immediately sue me for infringement. Of what? Patents are public; link me the patent you think they'd sue you for infringing. :)
  - koolba 9y ago
    > Of what? Patents are public; link me the patent you think they'd sue you for infringing. :) If they really want to crush little ol' me, I'm sure their legal team can find something in their existing patent warchest that would apply to React. Plus we don't know if they have applied for patents that would apply to React that are still under review.
    - Lazare 9y ago
      > If they really want to crush little ol' me, I'm sure their legal team can find something in their existing patent warchest that would apply to React. Yes, but also to your non-React code, right? Like...seriously, what patent do you think they might have that somehow only applies to React and not all the other modern frameworks that have been busily copying React?
      - koolba 9y ago
        That would require discovery. React being front end is immediately apparent if in use. You can't hide or deny it.

by Lazare 9y ago

doctorless 9y ago

I think we read a different FAQ, or I'm misreading your link. The FAQ says that if Facebook sues _you_ for patent infringement and you counter sue for patent infringement that they won't revoke your license, but I don't see anything that answers the parent comment's concern.

Lazare 9y ago
> Does termination of the additional patent grant in the Facebook BSD+Patents license cause the copyright license to also terminate? > No. In short, if you get into a patent dispute with them, your license to use React does not terminate. So when someone says "if you sue you will lose your rights to use react" this is wrong. My rights to use React come from the BSD license, not from the patent grant.
- gstein67 9y ago
  Exactly. You'll be using the React code under the BSD license but without any patent grants.
- doctorless 9y ago
  It's not entirely wrong. If you get into a patent dispute with them, you lose the patent grant to React, which means if they have any (none have been seen yet) patents related to React, they can very quickly countersue you, making the patent suit from your end, while still valid, a guaranteed financial ruin for any business not on their scale. We're not saying the license + patents combination explicitly grants Facebook the right to infringe on your patents, but rather it's a trap clause that makes it impossible to survive a patent lawsuit against them by virtue of using React, which in _effect_ is like a patent grant back to them.

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jnbiche 9y ago

Is this is true, then why the hell is Facebook digging in like this? They're going to ruin their hard-earned open source creds for very little gain.

Lazare 9y ago
Probably because they don't care. They created React to solve a problem they had, they open sourced it 'cause why not, some people adopted it, some people didn't...Facebook doesn't care either way. They're not an open source company, and they don't really care how many startups use React, or how many Github stars they+ have. They don't rely on external users for testing, or external devs for contributions. It's not so much they're "digging in" in the face of criticism, as they simply haven't noticed the criticism, because it has no relevance to Facebook at the level where corporate policy is set. Or so I believe. :)
- jnbiche 9y ago
  > ...Facebook doesn't care either way I disagree. There are clearly a lot of people who evangelize React and other open source projects. It helps a lot with recruitment and Facebook's public relations among devs. I just don't think the attorneys grasp how much this is affecting other parts of the company.

koolba 9y ago

From the linked FAQ: >> Does the additional patent grant in the Facebook BSD+Patents license terminate if I sue Facebook for something other than patent infringement? > No. >> Does the additional patent grant in the Facebook BSD+Patents license terminate if Facebook sues me for patent infringement first, and then I respond with a patent counterclaim against Facebook? > No, unless your patent counterclaim is related to Facebook's software licensed under the Facebook BSD+Patents license. My interpretation of that is if I use React I can't sue Facebook for any patent violations lest they pull their React patent licenses and immediately sue me for infringement.

Lazare 9y ago
> immediately sue me for infringement. Of what? Patents are public; link me the patent you think they'd sue you for infringing. :)
- koolba 9y ago
  > Of what? Patents are public; link me the patent you think they'd sue you for infringing. :) If they really want to crush little ol' me, I'm sure their legal team can find something in their existing patent warchest that would apply to React. Plus we don't know if they have applied for patents that would apply to React that are still under review.
  - Lazare 9y ago
    > If they really want to crush little ol' me, I'm sure their legal team can find something in their existing patent warchest that would apply to React. Yes, but also to your non-React code, right? Like...seriously, what patent do you think they might have that somehow only applies to React and not all the other modern frameworks that have been busily copying React?
    - koolba 9y ago
      That would require discovery. React being front end is immediately apparent if in use. You can't hide or deny it.