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As people below have already added their comments, I just want to give my two cents. This is not PR bullshit, but the Focus team can consider asking users on fi

As people below have already added their comments, I just want to give my two cents. This is not PR bullshit, but the Focus team can consider asking users on first run. This private browser, having been using it since beta on iOS, is nothing more than just a private browsing window like the one offered in Desktop version (I am not here to debate the technical implementation since I do not know). Telemetry does not break privacy. Privacy is a contract between the user and the product creator. In this case, Mozilla offers opt-out and does its best effort to document. User has the right to opt out or even choose not to use the software. To me, this is a positive user feedback, but not some PR bullshit (frustration I get it). When someone says your session is private under TLS, well, your IP and user-agent are almost guaranteed captured in server logs, but you can choose to believe/not believe the service provider promises in the respective ToS.

dheera 9y ago
Part of the problem is when Mozilla gives data to Google, there is no way of knowing what Google does with it. If you want to trust Mozilla AND Google AND trust that no gag orders have been issued to the above companies by the NSA, CIA, FBI et al, fine. That's the way 99% of apps work. They all have privacy policies, and people generally trust them. The whole point of explicitly "private" or "anonymous" software is that there are a bunch of users that do NOT trust the above. Calling your software "private browsing software" and then having Google-anything embedded in it is like serving vegetables cooked in chicken broth and calling your dish "vegetarian". Although 90% of the population will gladly eat your chicken broth, it's disingenuous to sell it to actual vegetarians.
- jjrrmm 9y ago
  very good analogy. thanks :)
- BHSPitMonkey 9y ago
  Well, the browsing is private. The way you obtain and use the browser isn't necessarily. It's an important distinction, though it's certainly still enough to be a dealbreaker for some.
  - st3fan 9y ago
    You can also download the APK directly from the github repo or fdroid if you don’t want to use the play store.
- mintplant 9y ago
  As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, the Google SDK is only used to record whether the app was installed by way of an ad campaign Mozilla is running on Google. All other telemetry data goes directly to Mozilla servers, and contains things like "feature X was used"—not browsing data. Since it's all free software, you can check what events are actually sent here: https://github.com/mozilla-mobile/focus-android/blob/master/app/src/main/java/org/mozilla/focus/telemetry/TelemetryWrapper.java https://github.com/mozilla-mobile/focus-android/blob/master/...
  - st3fan 9y ago
    That is not actually what I said. The only component we use for campaign tracking is Adjust which has nothing to do with google services. Adjust has gone through a very tough vetting process.
    - mintplant 9y ago
      Better to quote you directly: > - Adjust SDK: an install attribution tool (aka install referrer tracking). This is only used to determine whether the app was installed as the result of a specific (google-hosted) ad campaign. Adjust depends on play-services-analytics. ( https://www.adjust.com/glossary/install-referrer/ https://www.adjust.com/glossary/install-referrer/ ). play-services-analytics is what I meant by "the Google SDK" in question; sorry if that was unclear!
- st3fan 9y ago
  Mozilla does not give data to Google. Why do you think that? Can you be more concrete?
  - kuschku 9y ago
    You include an untrusted, proprietary binary from Google. Not directly, but as a recursive dependency: com.google.android.gms:play-services-analytics So, yes, you give data to Google. The Google analytics dependency you include could literally be malware, and you could not test, or know. And you never know if it doesn’t just decide to steal your data and transmit it all, be it by Google’s decision or because an NSL was issued to demand Google do that. So, yes, as soon as you include this dependency, the entire browser has to be considered compromised, and you might as well just use Google Chrome.
    - st3fan 9y ago
      Because that library is there does not mean that we are giving data to Google. It does not even mean that it is active or that it is sending anything. This is a very strange conclusion that you present. I feel you are just twisting and turning to come to an unfavourable outcome here. Even Google has decent data collection policies. They will not randomly make an application collect data without the developer opting in. We did not opt in. We are not including any sort of google analytics api key to enable anything. In any case I have filed https://github.com/mozilla-mobile/focus-android/issues/1174 https://github.com/mozilla-mobile/focus-android/issues/1174
      - kuschku 9y ago
        > Even Google has decent data collection policies. I’m not sure if you’re trying to intentionally ignore the issue here. You are asking people to trust Google. If people trusted Google, they’d use Google Chrome in the first place. Your entire userbase is people that don’t trust Google, at all. If you use Google proprietary software in Firefox, and tell people to just trust Google, you just entirely destroyed every value Firefox ever had, and your own job. The whole purpose of Firefox is that I don’t have to trust Google. That I don’t even have any kind of interaction with Google. That I can exist without having to use Google’s technology. If you use Google Analytics in Firefox’ Addon menu, or in Firefox Focus, and say "but Google doesn’t technically track people because we have a contract with them", then I can just as well use Chrome. If I trusted Google to keep their word, I’d use Chrome. Chrome runs far faster, looks better, is easier usable, has better addon support, works with more websites because everyone only supports Chrome anymore, it actually supports 10 bit video, oh, and it even does hardware video decoding on Linux. The entire reason anyone still uses Firefox is because they don’t trust Google. If you ask people to trust Google, you’re literally telling them to just use Google Chrome. That is the elephant in the room that everyone at mozilla tries to ignore by putting Google Analytics into the addon menu of Firefox (and, as result, also in the Tor browser), and by importing a Google Analytics library into Firefox Focus. This destroys the one single value that Firefox has in the current world: It’s not Google.
bjkiguilbjkl 9y ago
>Telemetry does not break privacy. [...] User has the right to [...] choose not to use the software. So, every software is the pinnacle of privacy, right? After all, you don't have to use them... Idiot.

dheera 9y ago

Part of the problem is when Mozilla gives data to Google, there is no way of knowing what Google does with it. If you want to trust Mozilla AND Google AND trust that no gag orders have been issued to the above companies by the NSA, CIA, FBI et al, fine. That's the way 99% of apps work. They all have privacy policies, and people generally trust them. The whole point of explicitly "private" or "anonymous" software is that there are a bunch of users that do NOT trust the above. Calling your software "private browsing software" and then having Google-anything embedded in it is like serving vegetables cooked in chicken broth and calling your dish "vegetarian". Although 90% of the population will gladly eat your chicken broth, it's disingenuous to sell it to actual vegetarians.

jjrrmm 9y ago
very good analogy. thanks :)
BHSPitMonkey 9y ago
Well, the browsing is private. The way you obtain and use the browser isn't necessarily. It's an important distinction, though it's certainly still enough to be a dealbreaker for some.
- st3fan 9y ago
  You can also download the APK directly from the github repo or fdroid if you don’t want to use the play store.
mintplant 9y ago
As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, the Google SDK is only used to record whether the app was installed by way of an ad campaign Mozilla is running on Google. All other telemetry data goes directly to Mozilla servers, and contains things like "feature X was used"—not browsing data. Since it's all free software, you can check what events are actually sent here: https://github.com/mozilla-mobile/focus-android/blob/master/app/src/main/java/org/mozilla/focus/telemetry/TelemetryWrapper.java https://github.com/mozilla-mobile/focus-android/blob/master/...
- st3fan 9y ago
  That is not actually what I said. The only component we use for campaign tracking is Adjust which has nothing to do with google services. Adjust has gone through a very tough vetting process.
  - mintplant 9y ago
    Better to quote you directly: > - Adjust SDK: an install attribution tool (aka install referrer tracking). This is only used to determine whether the app was installed as the result of a specific (google-hosted) ad campaign. Adjust depends on play-services-analytics. ( https://www.adjust.com/glossary/install-referrer/ https://www.adjust.com/glossary/install-referrer/ ). play-services-analytics is what I meant by "the Google SDK" in question; sorry if that was unclear!
st3fan 9y ago
Mozilla does not give data to Google. Why do you think that? Can you be more concrete?
- kuschku 9y ago
  You include an untrusted, proprietary binary from Google. Not directly, but as a recursive dependency: com.google.android.gms:play-services-analytics So, yes, you give data to Google. The Google analytics dependency you include could literally be malware, and you could not test, or know. And you never know if it doesn’t just decide to steal your data and transmit it all, be it by Google’s decision or because an NSL was issued to demand Google do that. So, yes, as soon as you include this dependency, the entire browser has to be considered compromised, and you might as well just use Google Chrome.
  - st3fan 9y ago
    Because that library is there does not mean that we are giving data to Google. It does not even mean that it is active or that it is sending anything. This is a very strange conclusion that you present. I feel you are just twisting and turning to come to an unfavourable outcome here. Even Google has decent data collection policies. They will not randomly make an application collect data without the developer opting in. We did not opt in. We are not including any sort of google analytics api key to enable anything. In any case I have filed https://github.com/mozilla-mobile/focus-android/issues/1174 https://github.com/mozilla-mobile/focus-android/issues/1174
    - kuschku 9y ago
      > Even Google has decent data collection policies. I’m not sure if you’re trying to intentionally ignore the issue here. You are asking people to trust Google. If people trusted Google, they’d use Google Chrome in the first place. Your entire userbase is people that don’t trust Google, at all. If you use Google proprietary software in Firefox, and tell people to just trust Google, you just entirely destroyed every value Firefox ever had, and your own job. The whole purpose of Firefox is that I don’t have to trust Google. That I don’t even have any kind of interaction with Google. That I can exist without having to use Google’s technology. If you use Google Analytics in Firefox’ Addon menu, or in Firefox Focus, and say "but Google doesn’t technically track people because we have a contract with them", then I can just as well use Chrome. If I trusted Google to keep their word, I’d use Chrome. Chrome runs far faster, looks better, is easier usable, has better addon support, works with more websites because everyone only supports Chrome anymore, it actually supports 10 bit video, oh, and it even does hardware video decoding on Linux. The entire reason anyone still uses Firefox is because they don’t trust Google. If you ask people to trust Google, you’re literally telling them to just use Google Chrome. That is the elephant in the room that everyone at mozilla tries to ignore by putting Google Analytics into the addon menu of Firefox (and, as result, also in the Tor browser), and by importing a Google Analytics library into Firefox Focus. This destroys the one single value that Firefox has in the current world: It’s not Google.

bjkiguilbjkl 9y ago

>Telemetry does not break privacy. [...] User has the right to [...] choose not to use the software. So, every software is the pinnacle of privacy, right? After all, you don't have to use them... Idiot.