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This is in reply to the Apache Software Foundation decision to list the BSD + Patents license as a Category-X license. - Facebook gets attacked by meritless pa

This is in reply to the Apache Software Foundation decision to list the BSD + Patents license as a Category-X license. - Facebook gets attacked by meritless patent litigation - Facebook creates the BSD + Patents license, which has the following effect : > The patent grant says that if you're going to use the software we've released under it, you lose the patent license from us if you sue us for patent infringement. - Facebook believe that 'if this license were widely adopted, it could actually reduce meritless litigation for all adopters' I understand Facebook's position here, surely this will decrease meritless litigation, but what about meritful litigation? Let's take an example, a small startup has a cool technology but also all their front-end is using React. That cool technology is patented. Now if 'Facebook or any of its subsidiaries or corporate affiliates' infringe on that patent, that startup won't be able to sue them without first re-writing the entire front-end to not use React. I don't think software should be patent-able in the first place anyways but it seems the situation above would still be true if that startup sues them for what they believe is a completely legitimate hardware patent. Also, IANAL, I'm wondering what even is the definition of a 'corporate affiliate' here? Who is a 'corporate affiliate' of FB? Finally, what 'patent license' are they referring to in this post anyways ? The react's PATENT clause (https://github.com/facebook/react/blob/b8ba8c83f318b84e42933f6928f231dc0918f864/PATENTS https://github.com/facebook/react/blob/b8ba8c83f318b84e42933...) says they're providing the React software License, and they revoke this software license if you sue them.

bpicolo 9y ago
> without first re-writing the entire front-end to not use React Do note this isn't necessarily the case, because nobody has yet found a patent that covers React.
- fhrow4484 9y ago
  This is what I find confusing, the blog post mentions a patent license that you are granted, but as you say, nobody is aware of any patent covering React. React's doesn't seem to use any novel technique in the field of CS. But https://github.com/facebook/react/blob/b8ba8c83f318b84e42933f6928f231dc0918f864/PATENTS https://github.com/facebook/react/blob/b8ba8c83f318b84e42933... , the way I read it says they grant you a license to to "make, have made, use, sell, offer to sell, import, and otherwise transfer" the React Software. They don't seem to give you a license to any patent.
  - fhrow4484 9y ago
    EDIT: "license under any Necessary Claims" seems to mean a license to the patents necessary for React as pointed out by https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15052962 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15052962 >> A "Necessary Claim" is a claim of a patent owned by Facebook that is necessarily infringed by the Software standing alone.
- sickcodebruh 9y ago
  True or not, is this the kind of power a company of Facebook's size should have over others? If something patentable was added to React, would there be a notice sent out? Let's also not forget that this applies to all of their open-source libraries, things like Immutable, GraphQL, Flux, Hack, HHVM, etc,...
- kbenson 9y ago
  Doesn't that only help if we have a react clone to drop in place? That's not necessarily hard to do without patents, but does it exist? Edit: I think I see what you are saying. It says you lose the patent license, not necessarily the license for the software that doesn't have a patent, so doesn't do anything. Not sure how a judge would decide to interpret it though.
  - bpicolo 9y ago
    There are a whole bunch of react API alternatives out there. (Preact, inferno, etcetc)
- eridius 9y ago
  Facebook's license means you lose the license to React if you sue Facebook for any patents, not just for patents that are related to React. That's the core problem here.
  - paxy 9y ago
    Exactly. The "BSD + patents" license applies to _all_ of React, not just the parts of React that use Facebook proprietary technology/patents (and they haven't even identified those parts). I'm never going to use React under this license, but this is still worrying to me because more companies could follow Facebook's lead and start using open-source as a nuclear deterrent against patent legislation.
    - chrisco255 9y ago
      Does the additional patent grant in the Facebook BSD+Patents license terminate if I create a competing product? No. Does the additional patent grant in the Facebook BSD+Patents license terminate if I sue Facebook for something other than patent infringement? No. Does the additional patent grant in the Facebook BSD+Patents license terminate if Facebook sues me for patent infringement first, and then I respond with a patent counterclaim against Facebook? No, unless your patent counterclaim is related to Facebook's software licensed under the Facebook BSD+Patents license. Does termination of the additional patent grant in the Facebook BSD+Patents license cause the copyright license to also terminate? No. From: https://code.facebook.com/pages/850928938376556 https://code.facebook.com/pages/850928938376556
      - eridius 9y ago
        Does the additional patent grant in Facebook BSD+Patents license terminate if Facebook infringes upon your legitimate patents and you sue them as is right and proper? Yes. Does the additional patent grant in Facebook BSD+Patents license terminate if React infringes upon your legitimate patents and you sue another company using React over this? Yes. > Does termination of the additional patent grant in the Facebook BSD+Patents license cause the copyright license to also terminate? If Facebook has any patents that are related to React, and you lose the grant for those patents, then Facebook can sue you over them if you use React. If Facebook doesn't have any patents that are related to React, then why do they have a patent grant?
deleted 9y ago
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valuearb 9y ago
Since patents are evil, I have no problem with some small startup losing the ability to be a patent troll.
bryanlarsen 9y ago
Facebook and other large software firms have a large arsenal of patents that's sufficient to defend themselves from a patent lawsuit from a large competitor. These patents are broad. So if you're writing web software with any amount of compexity, you probably infringe on Facebook's patents. If you are a small firm that owns a patent Facebook is infringing on and you wish to litigate it, you have basically two options: 1: give up your main business so you no longer infringe on the Facebook patents. IOW, become a troll. 2: get demolished by the Facebook counter suit. The React license doesn't change those two options one bit, it just makes it much more obvious. Facebook's intent is likely just to prevent the suits from even being considered in the first place.

bpicolo 9y ago

> without first re-writing the entire front-end to not use React Do note this isn't necessarily the case, because nobody has yet found a patent that covers React.

fhrow4484 9y ago
This is what I find confusing, the blog post mentions a patent license that you are granted, but as you say, nobody is aware of any patent covering React. React's doesn't seem to use any novel technique in the field of CS. But https://github.com/facebook/react/blob/b8ba8c83f318b84e42933f6928f231dc0918f864/PATENTS https://github.com/facebook/react/blob/b8ba8c83f318b84e42933... , the way I read it says they grant you a license to to "make, have made, use, sell, offer to sell, import, and otherwise transfer" the React Software. They don't seem to give you a license to any patent.
- fhrow4484 9y ago
  EDIT: "license under any Necessary Claims" seems to mean a license to the patents necessary for React as pointed out by https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15052962 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15052962 >> A "Necessary Claim" is a claim of a patent owned by Facebook that is necessarily infringed by the Software standing alone.
sickcodebruh 9y ago
True or not, is this the kind of power a company of Facebook's size should have over others? If something patentable was added to React, would there be a notice sent out? Let's also not forget that this applies to all of their open-source libraries, things like Immutable, GraphQL, Flux, Hack, HHVM, etc,...
kbenson 9y ago
Doesn't that only help if we have a react clone to drop in place? That's not necessarily hard to do without patents, but does it exist? Edit: I think I see what you are saying. It says you lose the patent license, not necessarily the license for the software that doesn't have a patent, so doesn't do anything. Not sure how a judge would decide to interpret it though.
- bpicolo 9y ago
  There are a whole bunch of react API alternatives out there. (Preact, inferno, etcetc)
eridius 9y ago
Facebook's license means you lose the license to React if you sue Facebook for any patents, not just for patents that are related to React. That's the core problem here.
- paxy 9y ago
  Exactly. The "BSD + patents" license applies to _all_ of React, not just the parts of React that use Facebook proprietary technology/patents (and they haven't even identified those parts). I'm never going to use React under this license, but this is still worrying to me because more companies could follow Facebook's lead and start using open-source as a nuclear deterrent against patent legislation.
  - chrisco255 9y ago
    Does the additional patent grant in the Facebook BSD+Patents license terminate if I create a competing product? No. Does the additional patent grant in the Facebook BSD+Patents license terminate if I sue Facebook for something other than patent infringement? No. Does the additional patent grant in the Facebook BSD+Patents license terminate if Facebook sues me for patent infringement first, and then I respond with a patent counterclaim against Facebook? No, unless your patent counterclaim is related to Facebook's software licensed under the Facebook BSD+Patents license. Does termination of the additional patent grant in the Facebook BSD+Patents license cause the copyright license to also terminate? No. From: https://code.facebook.com/pages/850928938376556 https://code.facebook.com/pages/850928938376556
    - eridius 9y ago
      Does the additional patent grant in Facebook BSD+Patents license terminate if Facebook infringes upon your legitimate patents and you sue them as is right and proper? Yes. Does the additional patent grant in Facebook BSD+Patents license terminate if React infringes upon your legitimate patents and you sue another company using React over this? Yes. > Does termination of the additional patent grant in the Facebook BSD+Patents license cause the copyright license to also terminate? If Facebook has any patents that are related to React, and you lose the grant for those patents, then Facebook can sue you over them if you use React. If Facebook doesn't have any patents that are related to React, then why do they have a patent grant?

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

valuearb 9y ago

Since patents are evil, I have no problem with some small startup losing the ability to be a patent troll.

bryanlarsen 9y ago

Facebook and other large software firms have a large arsenal of patents that's sufficient to defend themselves from a patent lawsuit from a large competitor. These patents are broad. So if you're writing web software with any amount of compexity, you probably infringe on Facebook's patents. If you are a small firm that owns a patent Facebook is infringing on and you wish to litigate it, you have basically two options: 1: give up your main business so you no longer infringe on the Facebook patents. IOW, become a troll. 2: get demolished by the Facebook counter suit. The React license doesn't change those two options one bit, it just makes it much more obvious. Facebook's intent is likely just to prevent the suits from even being considered in the first place.