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You forgot at least two pros: - Large salaries lead to higher savings rates - Opportunities are just not comparable almost anywhere less expensive: there are

by sidlls 9y ago

You forgot at least two pros: - Large salaries lead to higher savings rates - Opportunities are just not comparable almost anywhere less expensive: there are tens of thousands of jobs from hundreds of employers here in the Bay Area for technology that pays well, compared with hundreds or maybe a few thousand jobs for maybe a dozen or few tens of employers Also the "monoculture" dig applies to tech specifically: in terms of actual cultural diversity very few places are as interesting.

mychael 9y ago
Good point. Updated the list to include opportunities!
aaron-lebo 9y ago
We had a dev working for the summer who got a job at an SF startup this past week. He's making $2k a week, but his rent for his apartment costs $3k and he's got roommates. As someone who has lived off of $40k and rented a $1.4k a month loft that was absolutely palatial, in the middle of the city with great views, this sounds like insanity. My coworker who is from the Boston area was similarly aghast at the differences in cost of living. Have fun at your nice job, but I'm not coming home to roommates for $3k a month. The numbers don't really seem to work out, a lot of people are basically selling great living conditions for the chance to go work at companies that probably won't be there in a few years and really aren't doing anything interesting. Also the "monoculture" dig applies to tech specifically: in terms of actual cultural diversity very few places are as interesting. I feel like people who say this about any city haven't gotten out much in other cities.
- dyim 9y ago
  FYI, you don't need to pay $3k - I lived in the Mission / Potrero Hill area (with roommates, mind you) for a few years, and my rent had always been between $1000-1850/mo. Centrally located, safe(-ish), and beautiful. You can run through Bernal Heights Park, get ice cream at Humphrey Slocombe, and bike to the 24 Hour Fitness on 16th and Potrero. If you're in tech, you can definitely live well in SF :)
  - kbenson 9y ago
    Or commute a little. If you're paying multiples the cost to live 30 minutes away and commute, that's because you've attributed a high value on that locality, so complaining that it's too expensive doesn't make much sense.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - dyim 9y ago
      yes - when people complain about their own revealed preferences, just smile and nod!
  - realbarack 9y ago
    Yeah, living with roommates for 3k a month is a choice. I know people (myself included) who live with roommates, in nice places in desirable neighborhoods in SF, for 1/3 to 1/2 that.
  - roguecoder 9y ago
    My rent in Boston was $600 a month with roommates in an amazing renovated 2,600 sq ft apartment. A cheap vegetarian lunch was $5 instead of $10. My groceries were cheaper, there weren't homeless folks everywhere and salaries are about the same. In Boston I was rich; here, I watch what I spend and clean my own house. Too bad the jobs there were brutally boring. The inability of this area to build sufficient housing has a significant, material impact on our quality of life.
- gvd 9y ago
  Most comments here don't even mention kids. Childcare is very expensive on top of your rent/mortgage. It's highly likely that by the time you are 35-40 you will be paying for rent/mortgage AND childcare.
  - sidlls 9y ago
    Yes, it is very expensive (2 kids here). It's not appreciably more expensive than a Midwest town unless you really want that super premium private school.
    - gvd 9y ago
      Schools in the Bay Area can become pretty poor once you are in a more affordable area. If you want a decent school the rent/mortgage will reflect that.
- rak00n 9y ago
  You can get plenty of nice apartments in $3k range. I don't understand why he has to have roommates if that's not a personal preference.
gozur88 9y ago
Large salaries only lead to higher savings if they don't get gobbled up by taxes and a high CoL.
- godelski 9y ago
  You should be putting away a small percentage of your salary per month. Or else you are living above your means. So 5% of a high salary is larger than 5% of a lower. Or can be even higher than 10% of another area.
  - gozur88 9y ago
    I don't think it's reasonable to say you should be putting away a percentage of your gross. You have taxes and expenses, and your savings comes out of what's left. My point was that "what's left" part can be larger even with a smaller salary, depending on where you live.
    - sidlls 9y ago
      For jobs in this industry salaries everywhere are sufficient that a person should be saving the maximum percentage his company will match away in a 401k as a minimum (it's free money, more or less), if it's offered. Personally, I put 50% over the minimum in my 401k and then have after-tax allocations to savings and conservative stock (dividend paying) investments. If a 401k isn't offered, there are plenty of other ways to save some (smaller) post-tax amount. Here's the thing: for tech jobs in these low CoL areas the salary is also lower, so the 401k contribution is lower and one is more likely to have to contribute a smaller percentage because a greater percentage of the gross is spent on living expenses. The only cost of living item that is grossly out of whack with reason in the Bay Area is housing. It's not out of whack to the point that the entire boost in salary is consumed by housing expense.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
jtmarmon 9y ago
> - Large salaries lead to higher savings rates not in san fransisco https://www.mytrove.com/ca/san-francisco/cheddar/software-application-developers https://www.mytrove.com/ca/san-francisco/cheddar/software-ap...
- svachalek 9y ago
  Commute a little: https://www.mytrove.com/ca/santa-clara-county/cheddar/software-application-developers https://www.mytrove.com/ca/santa-clara-county/cheddar/softwa...
  - nostrademons 9y ago
    Or just work in the South Bay. All the really dominant Bay Area tech companies (Google, Facebook, Apple, Netflix - also Cisco, Intel, Juniper, NVidia, even Hewlett-Packard and IBM) are here.
    - rak00n 9y ago
      Cons: Bad traffic, bad public transportation, boredom if you're single.
  - danans 9y ago
    And if you are simultaneously looking to maximize hipness: https://www.mytrove.com/ca/oakland/cheddar/software-application-developers https://www.mytrove.com/ca/oakland/cheddar/software-applicat...
mrep 9y ago
Seattle is pretty close on salary/jobs and cost of living is much lower/no state income tax. Although there are some people that seem to only find enjoyment bitching about the weather which I find hilarious coming from the midwest where the temperature can swing 60 degrees in a day, summers are so hot that you sweat sitting down, and winters are so cold that you only see bundles of clothing walking around. I'll take mild temperatures, mountains, lakes/oceans, and a little bit of overcast over wild temperature swings, flat land, no water, and a bit more sun anyday.

by sidlls 9y ago

mychael 9y ago

Good point. Updated the list to include opportunities!

aaron-lebo 9y ago

We had a dev working for the summer who got a job at an SF startup this past week. He's making $2k a week, but his rent for his apartment costs $3k and he's got roommates. As someone who has lived off of $40k and rented a $1.4k a month loft that was absolutely palatial, in the middle of the city with great views, this sounds like insanity. My coworker who is from the Boston area was similarly aghast at the differences in cost of living. Have fun at your nice job, but I'm not coming home to roommates for $3k a month. The numbers don't really seem to work out, a lot of people are basically selling great living conditions for the chance to go work at companies that probably won't be there in a few years and really aren't doing anything interesting. Also the "monoculture" dig applies to tech specifically: in terms of actual cultural diversity very few places are as interesting. I feel like people who say this about any city haven't gotten out much in other cities.

dyim 9y ago
FYI, you don't need to pay $3k - I lived in the Mission / Potrero Hill area (with roommates, mind you) for a few years, and my rent had always been between $1000-1850/mo. Centrally located, safe(-ish), and beautiful. You can run through Bernal Heights Park, get ice cream at Humphrey Slocombe, and bike to the 24 Hour Fitness on 16th and Potrero. If you're in tech, you can definitely live well in SF :)
- kbenson 9y ago
  Or commute a little. If you're paying multiples the cost to live 30 minutes away and commute, that's because you've attributed a high value on that locality, so complaining that it's too expensive doesn't make much sense.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - dyim 9y ago
    yes - when people complain about their own revealed preferences, just smile and nod!
- realbarack 9y ago
  Yeah, living with roommates for 3k a month is a choice. I know people (myself included) who live with roommates, in nice places in desirable neighborhoods in SF, for 1/3 to 1/2 that.
- roguecoder 9y ago
  My rent in Boston was $600 a month with roommates in an amazing renovated 2,600 sq ft apartment. A cheap vegetarian lunch was $5 instead of $10. My groceries were cheaper, there weren't homeless folks everywhere and salaries are about the same. In Boston I was rich; here, I watch what I spend and clean my own house. Too bad the jobs there were brutally boring. The inability of this area to build sufficient housing has a significant, material impact on our quality of life.
gvd 9y ago
Most comments here don't even mention kids. Childcare is very expensive on top of your rent/mortgage. It's highly likely that by the time you are 35-40 you will be paying for rent/mortgage AND childcare.
- sidlls 9y ago
  Yes, it is very expensive (2 kids here). It's not appreciably more expensive than a Midwest town unless you really want that super premium private school.
  - gvd 9y ago
    Schools in the Bay Area can become pretty poor once you are in a more affordable area. If you want a decent school the rent/mortgage will reflect that.
rak00n 9y ago
You can get plenty of nice apartments in $3k range. I don't understand why he has to have roommates if that's not a personal preference.

gozur88 9y ago

Large salaries only lead to higher savings if they don't get gobbled up by taxes and a high CoL.

godelski 9y ago
You should be putting away a small percentage of your salary per month. Or else you are living above your means. So 5% of a high salary is larger than 5% of a lower. Or can be even higher than 10% of another area.
- gozur88 9y ago
  I don't think it's reasonable to say you should be putting away a percentage of your gross. You have taxes and expenses, and your savings comes out of what's left. My point was that "what's left" part can be larger even with a smaller salary, depending on where you live.
  - sidlls 9y ago
    For jobs in this industry salaries everywhere are sufficient that a person should be saving the maximum percentage his company will match away in a 401k as a minimum (it's free money, more or less), if it's offered. Personally, I put 50% over the minimum in my 401k and then have after-tax allocations to savings and conservative stock (dividend paying) investments. If a 401k isn't offered, there are plenty of other ways to save some (smaller) post-tax amount. Here's the thing: for tech jobs in these low CoL areas the salary is also lower, so the 401k contribution is lower and one is more likely to have to contribute a smaller percentage because a greater percentage of the gross is spent on living expenses. The only cost of living item that is grossly out of whack with reason in the Bay Area is housing. It's not out of whack to the point that the entire boost in salary is consumed by housing expense.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

jtmarmon 9y ago

> - Large salaries lead to higher savings rates not in san fransisco https://www.mytrove.com/ca/san-francisco/cheddar/software-application-developers https://www.mytrove.com/ca/san-francisco/cheddar/software-ap...

svachalek 9y ago
Commute a little: https://www.mytrove.com/ca/santa-clara-county/cheddar/software-application-developers https://www.mytrove.com/ca/santa-clara-county/cheddar/softwa...
- nostrademons 9y ago
  Or just work in the South Bay. All the really dominant Bay Area tech companies (Google, Facebook, Apple, Netflix - also Cisco, Intel, Juniper, NVidia, even Hewlett-Packard and IBM) are here.
  - rak00n 9y ago
    Cons: Bad traffic, bad public transportation, boredom if you're single.
- danans 9y ago
  And if you are simultaneously looking to maximize hipness: https://www.mytrove.com/ca/oakland/cheddar/software-application-developers https://www.mytrove.com/ca/oakland/cheddar/software-applicat...

mrep 9y ago

Seattle is pretty close on salary/jobs and cost of living is much lower/no state income tax. Although there are some people that seem to only find enjoyment bitching about the weather which I find hilarious coming from the midwest where the temperature can swing 60 degrees in a day, summers are so hot that you sweat sitting down, and winters are so cold that you only see bundles of clothing walking around. I'll take mild temperatures, mountains, lakes/oceans, and a little bit of overcast over wild temperature swings, flat land, no water, and a bit more sun anyday.