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The only thing that I can add is an anecdote. Around 2000, I worked at a startup that was streamlining the globalization logistics for large manufacturers. One

by afpx 9y ago

The only thing that I can add is an anecdote. Around 2000, I worked at a startup that was streamlining the globalization logistics for large manufacturers. One aspect of our software was a qualitative and quantitative rating system for factories in low-cost countries. One of our largest challenges was coming up with reliable scoring metrics that couldn't be gamed by the factories. Because Of this, we eventually had to resort to randomly sending physical auditors to factories. I wasn't part of that side of the business, but we had systems that allowed these auditors to enter data and notes. It wasn't uncommon for them to report on suicides. At the time, we didn't know much about Chinese culture beyond what we understood through movies and such, so we thought that 'suicide' was a euphemism for 'forced suicide'. Who knows - But, people would just disappear, at least at a seemingly higher rate in China than elsewhere. It was quite chilling.

matt4077 9y ago
Please note that the myth of a high rate of suicides at Apple's factories has been proven to be an invention.
- tajen 9y ago
  Given how many times it's been said and how sensible the question is, would you have a source for that?
  - jdietrich 9y ago
    It's simple maths. In the worst year for suicides, Foxconn had 14 deaths out of 930,000 workers. Divide one by the other and you get a remarkably low suicide rate by any standard. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides
    - vacri 9y ago
      It's not 'simple maths'. Those are 'on-campus suicides', not 'all suicides in the demographic'. Your own link also points out that suicides are mostly elderly rural people, which doesn't line up with the Foxconn worker demographic.
    - random023987 9y ago
      > It's simple maths. In the worst year for suicides, Foxconn had 14 deaths out of 930,000 workers. Divide one by the other and you get a remarkably low suicide rate by any standard. You need to take it one step further; you should compare it to the suicide rate of healthy, employed young adults. If (for example) the suicide rate is higher than employed adults, but comparable to unemployed, it would show a serious problem at the factory. In many industrialized countries suicide rates are not spread equally across all demographic groups.
      - valuearb 9y ago
        What is the suicide rate for young adults stuck working brutal rural farm jobs? Because that's what most of Foxconn employees waiting in line to escape.
    - peterwwillis 9y ago
      From the article: "There were 18 reported suicide attempts that year alone and 14 confirmed deaths. Twenty more workers were talked down by Foxconn officials." Then, "Foxconn CEO, Terry Gou, had large nets installed outside many of the buildings to catch falling bodies. The company hired counsellors and workers were made to sign pledges stating they would not attempt to kill themselves." "In 2012, 150 workers gathered on a rooftop and threatened to jump. They were promised improvements and talked down by management; they had, essentially, wielded the threat of killing themselves as a bargaining tool. In 2016, a smaller group did it again. Just a month before we spoke, Xu says, seven or eight workers gathered on a rooftop and threatened to jump unless they were paid the wages they were due, which had apparently been withheld. Eventually, Xu says, Foxconn agreed to pay the wages and the workers were talked down." "The body-catching nets are still there."
      - DanBC 9y ago
        Nets are a useful suicide prevention measure, and I work quite hard to get them installed in UK multi-story carparks. (Without much success.) If you can't fit nets you should consider other methods - one multi-storey carpark in England closed the whole top floor. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/suicide-prevention-suicides-in-public-places https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/suicide-preventio...
- omegaworks 9y ago
  > The difference is that Foxconn City is a nation-state governed entirely by a corporation and one that happened to be producing one of the most profitable products on the planet. Why do we put up with "oh, it's the same everywhere, so it's not a problem" when they are directly responsible for creating this environment?

by afpx 9y ago

matt4077 9y ago

Please note that the myth of a high rate of suicides at Apple's factories has been proven to be an invention.

tajen 9y ago
Given how many times it's been said and how sensible the question is, would you have a source for that?
- jdietrich 9y ago
  It's simple maths. In the worst year for suicides, Foxconn had 14 deaths out of 930,000 workers. Divide one by the other and you get a remarkably low suicide rate by any standard. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides
  - vacri 9y ago
    It's not 'simple maths'. Those are 'on-campus suicides', not 'all suicides in the demographic'. Your own link also points out that suicides are mostly elderly rural people, which doesn't line up with the Foxconn worker demographic.
  - random023987 9y ago
    > It's simple maths. In the worst year for suicides, Foxconn had 14 deaths out of 930,000 workers. Divide one by the other and you get a remarkably low suicide rate by any standard. You need to take it one step further; you should compare it to the suicide rate of healthy, employed young adults. If (for example) the suicide rate is higher than employed adults, but comparable to unemployed, it would show a serious problem at the factory. In many industrialized countries suicide rates are not spread equally across all demographic groups.
    - valuearb 9y ago
      What is the suicide rate for young adults stuck working brutal rural farm jobs? Because that's what most of Foxconn employees waiting in line to escape.
  - peterwwillis 9y ago
    From the article: "There were 18 reported suicide attempts that year alone and 14 confirmed deaths. Twenty more workers were talked down by Foxconn officials." Then, "Foxconn CEO, Terry Gou, had large nets installed outside many of the buildings to catch falling bodies. The company hired counsellors and workers were made to sign pledges stating they would not attempt to kill themselves." "In 2012, 150 workers gathered on a rooftop and threatened to jump. They were promised improvements and talked down by management; they had, essentially, wielded the threat of killing themselves as a bargaining tool. In 2016, a smaller group did it again. Just a month before we spoke, Xu says, seven or eight workers gathered on a rooftop and threatened to jump unless they were paid the wages they were due, which had apparently been withheld. Eventually, Xu says, Foxconn agreed to pay the wages and the workers were talked down." "The body-catching nets are still there."
    - DanBC 9y ago
      Nets are a useful suicide prevention measure, and I work quite hard to get them installed in UK multi-story carparks. (Without much success.) If you can't fit nets you should consider other methods - one multi-storey carpark in England closed the whole top floor. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/suicide-prevention-suicides-in-public-places https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/suicide-preventio...
omegaworks 9y ago
> The difference is that Foxconn City is a nation-state governed entirely by a corporation and one that happened to be producing one of the most profitable products on the planet. Why do we put up with "oh, it's the same everywhere, so it's not a problem" when they are directly responsible for creating this environment?