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I dunno why you're all worked up. I didn't say anyone was inept (I sure hope I didn't, if I did, my apologies). Nor did I say you should remove your chainsaw b

I dunno why you're all worked up. I didn't say anyone was inept (I sure hope I didn't, if I did, my apologies). Nor did I say you should remove your chainsaw brake. What I was saying was what works for me. If you want to approach things differently, be my guest, I wasn't trying to convince to be a clone of me, I was just saying this is what works for me. Not sure why that is such a controversial thing. Shrug.

oliwarner 9y ago
You'd previously said: > If you need what sawstop offers then there is no way I'd let you in my shop. I just wondered if your feelings towards table saw safety equipment were transferable to other dangerous machinery.
- luckydude 9y ago
  The sawstop solves one problem that tablesaws have. They have other problems, they can throw wood hard enough to go through a wall: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5F9TiHF2tc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5F9TiHF2tc I said if you "need" what that sawstop has. I was specific in my choice words. I didn't say "want", I said "need" because that implies you are careless enough that the sawstop is a necessity. Let me try it this way: if you are unable to run a tablesaw without getting your fingers in the blade, of course I don't want you in my shop. I'm not against safety equipment, I'm against people leaning on it, to me that's a crutch that's going to let you down at some point. And just to be clear, this is the system that works for me. This is part of how I stay alert and don't let myself get complacent. You want to use a different system, great, in your shop do whatever you want. In my shop, all equipment is dangerous, that's the rule, people who don't like that rule aren't welcome to use my equipment. Pretty much the same rule that my shop instructor taught me 40 years ago and it has worked so far for me.
  - oliwarner 9y ago
    WFM™ here is survival bias given form. Your system hasn't failed you yet. When it does —because you're human and we make mistakes— you get to lose a digit. The people saying they "need" this stuff are just saying they see avoidable risk and recognise their bodies are a finite resource worth the expense, even inconvenience of a few extra safety features. We're not talking about using sawstops in isolation. But anyway, we clearly differ in our approach to risk, or perhaps how we balance our own skills against it. Whatever it is, I don't think I'm going to change your opinion here. Stay lucky, dude.
    - luckydude 9y ago
      "When it does —because you're human and we make mistakes— you get to lose a digit." By that logic I should just get rid of my 3 wood lathes, metal lathe, 2 bandsaws, drillpress, chop saw, shaper, horizontal boring machine, metal bandsaw, sawzall, circle saws, etc, because none of those have the sawstop feature. And, by the same logic, loose the 5 chainsaws, the industrial chipper, the excavator, the two tractors, the rhino, because none of those are safe either. Which is just silly. This whole discussion is silly. I've got a system that's been working for me for 40 years yet you feel like you want to tell me I'm gonna lose a finger. Maybe I will but it won't be on the tablesaw, I use push sticks. Religiously. Which is why I still have all my fingers. Sam Maloof pushed his stuff through with his hand and never lost a finger. I just don't like the sawstop. It doesn't remove all of the risks, it's expensive when you forget to turn it off when you are cutting green wood, it's easy to forget to turn it back on when you switch back to dry wood, and I have never, in 40 years of using tablesaws, had any sort of fear of the tablesaw. Respect, absolutely, but a tablesaw, properly used, isn't high up on the risk scale. Free handing on the bandsaw is way way more risky yet people do it all the time. I'm not telling you to do what I do, you can do whatever you want. I do resent, a bit, your view that I'll lose a finger. That implies you think I don't know what I'm doing and I resent that. Or maybe it is just like you said, it has been 40 years of getting lucky. Or maybe not.
      - oliwarner 9y ago
        > That implies you think I don't know what I'm doing and I resent that. That's fair enough. I'm sorry. I truly believe you are knowledgeable in your tools and what you do with them. I think if that weren't the case, 40 years using them would have left you unable to type these comments. But I would also put some of the other 40-80 thousand people hospitalised by table saws in the last year in your category. And over 90% of those were hand in blade injuries. The sort of thing that is vastly eradicated by a blade that can detect a hand and deactivate. So yes, I take your points, but epidemiologically, doing nothing and hoping people just do it better next time is more harmful to all of us than demanding better safety equipment as standard. Perhaps that opinion is my Britishness coming through; we're paying the medical costs of our woodworkers' injuries directly.

oliwarner 9y ago

You'd previously said: > If you need what sawstop offers then there is no way I'd let you in my shop. I just wondered if your feelings towards table saw safety equipment were transferable to other dangerous machinery.

luckydude 9y ago
The sawstop solves one problem that tablesaws have. They have other problems, they can throw wood hard enough to go through a wall: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5F9TiHF2tc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5F9TiHF2tc I said if you "need" what that sawstop has. I was specific in my choice words. I didn't say "want", I said "need" because that implies you are careless enough that the sawstop is a necessity. Let me try it this way: if you are unable to run a tablesaw without getting your fingers in the blade, of course I don't want you in my shop. I'm not against safety equipment, I'm against people leaning on it, to me that's a crutch that's going to let you down at some point. And just to be clear, this is the system that works for me. This is part of how I stay alert and don't let myself get complacent. You want to use a different system, great, in your shop do whatever you want. In my shop, all equipment is dangerous, that's the rule, people who don't like that rule aren't welcome to use my equipment. Pretty much the same rule that my shop instructor taught me 40 years ago and it has worked so far for me.
- oliwarner 9y ago
  WFM™ here is survival bias given form. Your system hasn't failed you yet. When it does —because you're human and we make mistakes— you get to lose a digit. The people saying they "need" this stuff are just saying they see avoidable risk and recognise their bodies are a finite resource worth the expense, even inconvenience of a few extra safety features. We're not talking about using sawstops in isolation. But anyway, we clearly differ in our approach to risk, or perhaps how we balance our own skills against it. Whatever it is, I don't think I'm going to change your opinion here. Stay lucky, dude.
  - luckydude 9y ago
    "When it does —because you're human and we make mistakes— you get to lose a digit." By that logic I should just get rid of my 3 wood lathes, metal lathe, 2 bandsaws, drillpress, chop saw, shaper, horizontal boring machine, metal bandsaw, sawzall, circle saws, etc, because none of those have the sawstop feature. And, by the same logic, loose the 5 chainsaws, the industrial chipper, the excavator, the two tractors, the rhino, because none of those are safe either. Which is just silly. This whole discussion is silly. I've got a system that's been working for me for 40 years yet you feel like you want to tell me I'm gonna lose a finger. Maybe I will but it won't be on the tablesaw, I use push sticks. Religiously. Which is why I still have all my fingers. Sam Maloof pushed his stuff through with his hand and never lost a finger. I just don't like the sawstop. It doesn't remove all of the risks, it's expensive when you forget to turn it off when you are cutting green wood, it's easy to forget to turn it back on when you switch back to dry wood, and I have never, in 40 years of using tablesaws, had any sort of fear of the tablesaw. Respect, absolutely, but a tablesaw, properly used, isn't high up on the risk scale. Free handing on the bandsaw is way way more risky yet people do it all the time. I'm not telling you to do what I do, you can do whatever you want. I do resent, a bit, your view that I'll lose a finger. That implies you think I don't know what I'm doing and I resent that. Or maybe it is just like you said, it has been 40 years of getting lucky. Or maybe not.
    - oliwarner 9y ago
      > That implies you think I don't know what I'm doing and I resent that. That's fair enough. I'm sorry. I truly believe you are knowledgeable in your tools and what you do with them. I think if that weren't the case, 40 years using them would have left you unable to type these comments. But I would also put some of the other 40-80 thousand people hospitalised by table saws in the last year in your category. And over 90% of those were hand in blade injuries. The sort of thing that is vastly eradicated by a blade that can detect a hand and deactivate. So yes, I take your points, but epidemiologically, doing nothing and hoping people just do it better next time is more harmful to all of us than demanding better safety equipment as standard. Perhaps that opinion is my Britishness coming through; we're paying the medical costs of our woodworkers' injuries directly.