4 ms·

Your quoted person: > Rethinking this. Should have said violent, not hate-filled. They were standing up to hate. They are not the same. First off: disclaimer:

by croon 9y ago

Your quoted person: > Rethinking this. Should have said violent, not hate-filled. They were standing up to hate. They are not the same. First off: disclaimer: I'm not condoning any violence, but this is a fact: There would be no antifa without far right extremists. There would be far right extremists regardless. One is an admittedly on occasion violent antibody, but an antibody to a disease nonetheless. They might share blame, but extremely far from parity.

leereeves 9y ago
> There would be no antifa without far right extremists. They weren't fighting "far right extremists" at the G20 summit. Antifa is violent. Full stop. That's independent of the equally bad people who are sometimes on the other side.
- mschuster91 9y ago
  I was at G20. We did not initiate the violence, it was initiated by the police on Thursday by attacking the peaceful demonstration (which had even unmasked in the majority, as ordered by police). Source: Witnessed everything from a bridge above the watercannons.
  - DarkKomunalec 9y ago
    > which had even unmasked in the majority, as ordered by police Honestly I find such an order repugnant. Anonymity is crucial to free speech, especially when protesting a group as powerful as G20. I'm sure no-one thinks they should be forced to report their political activity to their employer (at least judging from the outcry when the Trump administration requested all those IP addresses), but such an order is effectively exactly that.
    - mschuster91 9y ago
      In fact, masking is a felony in Germany and can land you in jail for up to one year.
- croon 9y ago
  > They weren't fighting "far right extremists" at the G20 summit. This doesn't negate anything I said. > Antifa is violent. Full stop. On occasion, their ideals aren't. > That's independent of the equally bad people who are sometimes on the other side. Again, not equal, and again, wouldn't exist without Nazis.
  - leereeves 9y ago
    > Again, not equal, and again, wouldn't exist without Nazis. Antifa is also "anticapitalist". https://twitter.com/NYCAntifa/status/882475842802262016 https://twitter.com/NYCAntifa/status/882475842802262016 They would exist without Nazis. In fact, Charlottesville may be the first time they've actually fought Nazis.
    - croon 9y ago
      > They would exist without Nazis. In fact, Charlottesville may be the first time they've actually fought Nazis. > The first German movement to call itself Antifaschistische Aktion was proclaimed by the German Communist Party (KPD) in their newspaper Rote Fahne in 1932 and held its first rally in Berlin on 10 July 1932, then capital of the Weimar Republic. During the early 1930s amidst rising tensions between Nazis and the communists, Berlin in particular has been the site of regular and often very violent clashes between the two groups.
      - leereeves 9y ago
        I'm talking about the people who call themselves Antifa now, not everyone who's ever used that name. There's no direct connection between those people in 1932 and these people in 2017, except using the same name.
        croon 9y ago
        > I'm talking about the people who call themselves Antifa now, not everyone who's ever used that name. > There's no direct connection between those people in 1932 and these people in 2017, except using the same name. And you're basing this on what?
mschuster91 9y ago
I fully agree with you. Thanks. Also, read this post by Daniel Sieradsky. It perfectly sums up why ANY comparison between Nazis and Antifa is totally invalid: https://twitter.com/NYCAntifa/status/898528286325723136 https://twitter.com/NYCAntifa/status/898528286325723136
- leereeves 9y ago
  That post claims left-wing terrorists are responsible for less violence. A quick look at the Global Terrorism Database for 2016 (the most recent year available) calls that into question: https://www.start.umd.edu/gtd/search/Results.aspx?page=1&casualties_type=b&casualties_max=&start_year=2016&start_month=1&start_day=1&end_year=2016&end_month=12&end_day=31&dtp2=all&country=217&region=1&count=100&charttype=line&chart=overtime&expanded=no&ob=TotalNumberOfFatalities&od=desc#results-table https://www.start.umd.edu/gtd/search/Results.aspx?page=1&cas... According to that, either Muslim or left-wing (anti-white or anti-police) extremists were responsible for all the fatalities in 2016, save one attack for which the motive is unknown.
  - croon 9y ago
    > According to that, either Muslim or left-wing (anti-white or anti-police) extremists were responsible for all the fatalities in 2016, save one attack for which the motive is unknown. First off, you're taking liberties in assigning those to left-wing extremism without a basis. Here's some more data, over a longer period: Quoting ADL's Murder and Extremism in the United States in 2016 report [1] (focus on domestic terrorism): Killings between 2001-2010 by: Left-Wing Extremists | Right-Wing Extremists | Domestic Islamic Extremists 2 | 24 | 0 Between 2011-2016: 8 | 10 | 1 [1] https://www.adl.org/sites/default/files/documents/MurderAndExtremismInUS2016.pdf https://www.adl.org/sites/default/files/documents/MurderAndE...
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - leereeves 9y ago
      Left-wing violence is on the rise. All of those 8 people killed by the left were in 2016 (Dallas and Baton Rouge attacks on police officers), none of the people killed by the right were (unless the ADL is mysteriously counting the killing of an Imam in NYC by a Hispanic man whose motive is unknown as "right-wing"). That's assuming the ADL's numbers are right and none of the other people the GTD called "anti-police extremists" were left-wing, which appears to be incorrect. [1] The "rise of the violent left", as The Atlantic called it, is a depressing trend. Anyway, I have to go and won't be able to respond until tomorrow. Have a great day. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_killings_of_NYPD_officers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_killings_of_NYPD_officers

by croon 9y ago

leereeves 9y ago

> There would be no antifa without far right extremists. They weren't fighting "far right extremists" at the G20 summit. Antifa is violent. Full stop. That's independent of the equally bad people who are sometimes on the other side.

mschuster91 9y ago
I was at G20. We did not initiate the violence, it was initiated by the police on Thursday by attacking the peaceful demonstration (which had even unmasked in the majority, as ordered by police). Source: Witnessed everything from a bridge above the watercannons.
- DarkKomunalec 9y ago
  > which had even unmasked in the majority, as ordered by police Honestly I find such an order repugnant. Anonymity is crucial to free speech, especially when protesting a group as powerful as G20. I'm sure no-one thinks they should be forced to report their political activity to their employer (at least judging from the outcry when the Trump administration requested all those IP addresses), but such an order is effectively exactly that.
  - mschuster91 9y ago
    In fact, masking is a felony in Germany and can land you in jail for up to one year.
croon 9y ago
> They weren't fighting "far right extremists" at the G20 summit. This doesn't negate anything I said. > Antifa is violent. Full stop. On occasion, their ideals aren't. > That's independent of the equally bad people who are sometimes on the other side. Again, not equal, and again, wouldn't exist without Nazis.
- leereeves 9y ago
  > Again, not equal, and again, wouldn't exist without Nazis. Antifa is also "anticapitalist". https://twitter.com/NYCAntifa/status/882475842802262016 https://twitter.com/NYCAntifa/status/882475842802262016 They would exist without Nazis. In fact, Charlottesville may be the first time they've actually fought Nazis.
  - croon 9y ago
    > They would exist without Nazis. In fact, Charlottesville may be the first time they've actually fought Nazis. > The first German movement to call itself Antifaschistische Aktion was proclaimed by the German Communist Party (KPD) in their newspaper Rote Fahne in 1932 and held its first rally in Berlin on 10 July 1932, then capital of the Weimar Republic. During the early 1930s amidst rising tensions between Nazis and the communists, Berlin in particular has been the site of regular and often very violent clashes between the two groups.
    - leereeves 9y ago
      I'm talking about the people who call themselves Antifa now, not everyone who's ever used that name. There's no direct connection between those people in 1932 and these people in 2017, except using the same name.
      - croon 9y ago
        > I'm talking about the people who call themselves Antifa now, not everyone who's ever used that name. > There's no direct connection between those people in 1932 and these people in 2017, except using the same name. And you're basing this on what?

mschuster91 9y ago

I fully agree with you. Thanks. Also, read this post by Daniel Sieradsky. It perfectly sums up why ANY comparison between Nazis and Antifa is totally invalid: https://twitter.com/NYCAntifa/status/898528286325723136 https://twitter.com/NYCAntifa/status/898528286325723136

leereeves 9y ago
That post claims left-wing terrorists are responsible for less violence. A quick look at the Global Terrorism Database for 2016 (the most recent year available) calls that into question: https://www.start.umd.edu/gtd/search/Results.aspx?page=1&casualties_type=b&casualties_max=&start_year=2016&start_month=1&start_day=1&end_year=2016&end_month=12&end_day=31&dtp2=all&country=217&region=1&count=100&charttype=line&chart=overtime&expanded=no&ob=TotalNumberOfFatalities&od=desc#results-table https://www.start.umd.edu/gtd/search/Results.aspx?page=1&cas... According to that, either Muslim or left-wing (anti-white or anti-police) extremists were responsible for all the fatalities in 2016, save one attack for which the motive is unknown.
- croon 9y ago
  > According to that, either Muslim or left-wing (anti-white or anti-police) extremists were responsible for all the fatalities in 2016, save one attack for which the motive is unknown. First off, you're taking liberties in assigning those to left-wing extremism without a basis. Here's some more data, over a longer period: Quoting ADL's Murder and Extremism in the United States in 2016 report [1] (focus on domestic terrorism): Killings between 2001-2010 by: Left-Wing Extremists | Right-Wing Extremists | Domestic Islamic Extremists 2 | 24 | 0 Between 2011-2016: 8 | 10 | 1 [1] https://www.adl.org/sites/default/files/documents/MurderAndExtremismInUS2016.pdf https://www.adl.org/sites/default/files/documents/MurderAndE...
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - leereeves 9y ago
    Left-wing violence is on the rise. All of those 8 people killed by the left were in 2016 (Dallas and Baton Rouge attacks on police officers), none of the people killed by the right were (unless the ADL is mysteriously counting the killing of an Imam in NYC by a Hispanic man whose motive is unknown as "right-wing"). That's assuming the ADL's numbers are right and none of the other people the GTD called "anti-police extremists" were left-wing, which appears to be incorrect. [1] The "rise of the violent left", as The Atlantic called it, is a depressing trend. Anyway, I have to go and won't be able to respond until tomorrow. Have a great day. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_killings_of_NYPD_officers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_killings_of_NYPD_officers