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This is why I couldn't believe that terrorism was invoked. (for a second, before accepting the unscrupulous cleverness of it) Terrorism is when a message is se

by ygaf 9y ago

This is why I couldn't believe that terrorism was invoked. (for a second, before accepting the unscrupulous cleverness of it) Terrorism is when a message is sent to the people at large, not what happens between warring protestors. Terrorism is what Theresa May wants to tap internet communications for.

Shivetya 9y ago
to me the key difference is terrorism is premeditated. this violence was the act of one individual and is blown out of proportion. what was not communicated is that only these "alt-right" groups had permission to march and demonstrate and the police were told to not intervene when counter groups who assembled in similar manner without permission were allowed free reign to incite the issue. I am all for letting these "alt-right/left" groups march to their hearts content provided their faces are visible. it gives them an outlet and lets the rest of us know who they are. so while their message may be repugnant they have the right to march. the ACLU recent preening/posturing/etc is shameful compared to their past actions. far too many groups are piling on declaring how they are against violence which is non declaration. Of course violence cannot be supported. the real danger is if we force these groups underground that some of their members may act out with much more terrible violence.
- macintux 9y ago
  http://www.snopes.com/were-police-told-stand-down-charlottesville/ http://www.snopes.com/were-police-told-stand-down-charlottes...
  - leereeves 9y ago
    [Removed mistaken post]
    - icebraining 9y ago
      Snopes does cite the tweet, and does say there were brawls and that some people blame the police for not having intervened enough. Which facts have they missed?
      - leereeves 9y ago
        My mistake; I shouldn't post while busy with other things.
- mschuster91 9y ago
  > I am all for letting these "alt-right/left" groups march to their hearts content provided their faces are visible. You do know what happens once neo-Nazis get photos of your face? People are getting harrassed online, then offline, rounded up, beaten and occasionally murdered. Masking is self-protection. And yes there IS a difference between lefties and Nazis masking up: Lefties, generally, don't kill. Worst you get as a Nazi is a beating. Nazis do kill (50 or 68 alone due to terrorist attacks since 9/11, per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_terrorism#cite_ref-NewAmericaTally_39-0 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_terrorism#cite_ref-...). Source: know a couple "outed" activists, got my face distributed by a local Nazi party leader on Youtube.
  - leereeves 9y ago
    > People are getting...rounded up, beaten and occasionally murdered Source? Neo-Nazis rounding up and beating Americans is such an outrageous story that, if it were true, every media outlet in America would be reporting it.
    - mschuster91 9y ago
      > if it were true, every media outlet in America would be reporting it. LOL as if the mainstream press would care about right-wing violence. As long as it can be swept under the rug or it's only minorities who suffer, they don't care - simply because the majority of customers are white men, and they are not interested if PoC or minorities get hit. Charlottesville only got attention because the terror victim was white, what happened the day before at night or with the PoC nearly beaten to death in a garage was shadowed by the murder. There are many sources proving my point, when it comes to the facts. For example: - The number of violent attacks on U.S. soil inspired by far-right ideology has spiked since the beginning of this century, rising from a yearly avarage of 70 attacks in the 1990s to a yearly avarage of more than 300 since 2001. These incidents have grown even more common since President Donald Trump’s election. (per http://www.newsweek.com/2016/02/12/right-wing-extremists-militants-bigger-threat-america-isis-jihadists-422743.html http://www.newsweek.com/2016/02/12/right-wing-extremists-mil...) - They and untold thousands like them are the extremists who hide among us, the right-wing militants who, since 2002, have killed more people in the United States than jihadis have. In that time, according to New America, a Washington think tank, Islamists launched nine attacks that murdered 45, while the right-wing extremists struck 18 times, leaving 48 dead. (per http://www.newsweek.com/2016/02/12/right-wing-extremists-militants-bigger-threat-america-isis-jihadists-422743.html http://www.newsweek.com/2016/02/12/right-wing-extremists-mil...)
- croon 9y ago
  > what was not communicated is that only these "alt-right" groups had permission to march and demonstrate and the police were told to not intervene when counter groups who assembled in similar manner without permission were allowed free reign to incite the issue. It could be because both of those statements are lies. You might need to rethink which outlet you go to for news. Although one of those outlets happens to be the POTUS, which is unfortunate. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2017/aug/17/donald-trump/donald-trump-wrong-charlottesville-counter-protest/ http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2017/aug/... http://www.snopes.com/were-police-told-stand-down-charlottesville/ http://www.snopes.com/were-police-told-stand-down-charlottes...
matt4077 9y ago
This is insane :( People protesting against Nazis aren't the left-wing equivalent of them. Nazis want genocide. If you don't want to kill all the jews/blacks/muslims you're anti-Nazi, and should, when given the chance, make your opinion known by protesting against them. That means the victim of this terror attack probably wasn't some sort of left-wing "warring protestor", but an actual, rather normal, person. But anyway... The definition of terrorism is politically motivated violence. Not calling this terrorism, when it's using literally the same method as ISIS has been using in the last years, is starting to make it really hard to believe that all these free speech advocates aren't just trying to hide their sympathies for the skinheads they're defending. I mean: there were militia in fatigues with rifles chanting threats outside a synagogue in Charlottesville. The congregation inside could have used some of these people professing their willingness to give their life in the defence of others. But nobody showed up, not even the police, and it's also never mentioned. I wonder why?
ygaf 9y ago
Replying to matt, not sure why his post was flagged (aside from veering off my topic): >People protesting against Nazis aren't... >That means... You theorise a lot about the opposing side on this one occasion, that is contrary to what we've seen for a year from american political clashes. >But anyway... The definition of terrorism is politically motivated violence. Not calling this terrorism, when it's using literally the same method as ISIS has been using in the last years, is starting to make it really hard to believe that all these free speech advocates aren't just trying to hide their sympathies for the skinheads they're defending. Drunk drivers "use the same method" to kill people. What's really depressing is the fact that lights a bulb in people's head that says terrorism. It means they don't have actual definitions of words in their heads. I'm not a nazi sympathiser at all, thank you. And believe any of those at Charlottesville truly concerned with white heritage and statues failed themselves by association (nevermind carrying torches..).

by ygaf 9y ago

Shivetya 9y ago

to me the key difference is terrorism is premeditated. this violence was the act of one individual and is blown out of proportion. what was not communicated is that only these "alt-right" groups had permission to march and demonstrate and the police were told to not intervene when counter groups who assembled in similar manner without permission were allowed free reign to incite the issue. I am all for letting these "alt-right/left" groups march to their hearts content provided their faces are visible. it gives them an outlet and lets the rest of us know who they are. so while their message may be repugnant they have the right to march. the ACLU recent preening/posturing/etc is shameful compared to their past actions. far too many groups are piling on declaring how they are against violence which is non declaration. Of course violence cannot be supported. the real danger is if we force these groups underground that some of their members may act out with much more terrible violence.

macintux 9y ago
http://www.snopes.com/were-police-told-stand-down-charlottesville/ http://www.snopes.com/were-police-told-stand-down-charlottes...
- leereeves 9y ago
  [Removed mistaken post]
  - icebraining 9y ago
    Snopes does cite the tweet, and does say there were brawls and that some people blame the police for not having intervened enough. Which facts have they missed?
    - leereeves 9y ago
      My mistake; I shouldn't post while busy with other things.
mschuster91 9y ago
> I am all for letting these "alt-right/left" groups march to their hearts content provided their faces are visible. You do know what happens once neo-Nazis get photos of your face? People are getting harrassed online, then offline, rounded up, beaten and occasionally murdered. Masking is self-protection. And yes there IS a difference between lefties and Nazis masking up: Lefties, generally, don't kill. Worst you get as a Nazi is a beating. Nazis do kill (50 or 68 alone due to terrorist attacks since 9/11, per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_terrorism#cite_ref-NewAmericaTally_39-0 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_terrorism#cite_ref-...). Source: know a couple "outed" activists, got my face distributed by a local Nazi party leader on Youtube.
- leereeves 9y ago
  > People are getting...rounded up, beaten and occasionally murdered Source? Neo-Nazis rounding up and beating Americans is such an outrageous story that, if it were true, every media outlet in America would be reporting it.
  - mschuster91 9y ago
    > if it were true, every media outlet in America would be reporting it. LOL as if the mainstream press would care about right-wing violence. As long as it can be swept under the rug or it's only minorities who suffer, they don't care - simply because the majority of customers are white men, and they are not interested if PoC or minorities get hit. Charlottesville only got attention because the terror victim was white, what happened the day before at night or with the PoC nearly beaten to death in a garage was shadowed by the murder. There are many sources proving my point, when it comes to the facts. For example: - The number of violent attacks on U.S. soil inspired by far-right ideology has spiked since the beginning of this century, rising from a yearly avarage of 70 attacks in the 1990s to a yearly avarage of more than 300 since 2001. These incidents have grown even more common since President Donald Trump’s election. (per http://www.newsweek.com/2016/02/12/right-wing-extremists-militants-bigger-threat-america-isis-jihadists-422743.html http://www.newsweek.com/2016/02/12/right-wing-extremists-mil...) - They and untold thousands like them are the extremists who hide among us, the right-wing militants who, since 2002, have killed more people in the United States than jihadis have. In that time, according to New America, a Washington think tank, Islamists launched nine attacks that murdered 45, while the right-wing extremists struck 18 times, leaving 48 dead. (per http://www.newsweek.com/2016/02/12/right-wing-extremists-militants-bigger-threat-america-isis-jihadists-422743.html http://www.newsweek.com/2016/02/12/right-wing-extremists-mil...)
croon 9y ago
> what was not communicated is that only these "alt-right" groups had permission to march and demonstrate and the police were told to not intervene when counter groups who assembled in similar manner without permission were allowed free reign to incite the issue. It could be because both of those statements are lies. You might need to rethink which outlet you go to for news. Although one of those outlets happens to be the POTUS, which is unfortunate. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2017/aug/17/donald-trump/donald-trump-wrong-charlottesville-counter-protest/ http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2017/aug/... http://www.snopes.com/were-police-told-stand-down-charlottesville/ http://www.snopes.com/were-police-told-stand-down-charlottes...

matt4077 9y ago

This is insane :( People protesting against Nazis aren't the left-wing equivalent of them. Nazis want genocide. If you don't want to kill all the jews/blacks/muslims you're anti-Nazi, and should, when given the chance, make your opinion known by protesting against them. That means the victim of this terror attack probably wasn't some sort of left-wing "warring protestor", but an actual, rather normal, person. But anyway... The definition of terrorism is politically motivated violence. Not calling this terrorism, when it's using literally the same method as ISIS has been using in the last years, is starting to make it really hard to believe that all these free speech advocates aren't just trying to hide their sympathies for the skinheads they're defending. I mean: there were militia in fatigues with rifles chanting threats outside a synagogue in Charlottesville. The congregation inside could have used some of these people professing their willingness to give their life in the defence of others. But nobody showed up, not even the police, and it's also never mentioned. I wonder why?

ygaf 9y ago

Replying to matt, not sure why his post was flagged (aside from veering off my topic): >People protesting against Nazis aren't... >That means... You theorise a lot about the opposing side on this one occasion, that is contrary to what we've seen for a year from american political clashes. >But anyway... The definition of terrorism is politically motivated violence. Not calling this terrorism, when it's using literally the same method as ISIS has been using in the last years, is starting to make it really hard to believe that all these free speech advocates aren't just trying to hide their sympathies for the skinheads they're defending. Drunk drivers "use the same method" to kill people. What's really depressing is the fact that lights a bulb in people's head that says terrorism. It means they don't have actual definitions of words in their heads. I'm not a nazi sympathiser at all, thank you. And believe any of those at Charlottesville truly concerned with white heritage and statues failed themselves by association (nevermind carrying torches..).