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I realize I'm risking downvotes with this one, but I think it's worth acknowledging. While Charlottesville was a tragedy, and the time is not right imo to discu

I realize I'm risking downvotes with this one, but I think it's worth acknowledging. While Charlottesville was a tragedy, and the time is not right imo to discuss it with the public at large precisely because it was a tragedy and people are still mourning, the event was overall as peaceful as any severely political protest ever is. The deaths and injuries that occurred should not be simply discounted as if the people are simply disposable, but the majority of activists on both sides did not cause those deaths and injuries. Unless there is a major point of information that I am ignorant of, the driver who has catapulted the event into the national spotlight acted essentially in isolation even if his ideology was not held in isolation at the event. He acted heinously, and now is not the time for taking easy solace, but I think there's some merit in the reality that by and large people on both sides were able to demonstrate with the -relative- peacefulness of a generic controversial American protest with orbital counter protests.

ygaf 9y ago
This is why I couldn't believe that terrorism was invoked. (for a second, before accepting the unscrupulous cleverness of it) Terrorism is when a message is sent to the people at large, not what happens between warring protestors. Terrorism is what Theresa May wants to tap internet communications for.
- Shivetya 9y ago
  to me the key difference is terrorism is premeditated. this violence was the act of one individual and is blown out of proportion. what was not communicated is that only these "alt-right" groups had permission to march and demonstrate and the police were told to not intervene when counter groups who assembled in similar manner without permission were allowed free reign to incite the issue. I am all for letting these "alt-right/left" groups march to their hearts content provided their faces are visible. it gives them an outlet and lets the rest of us know who they are. so while their message may be repugnant they have the right to march. the ACLU recent preening/posturing/etc is shameful compared to their past actions. far too many groups are piling on declaring how they are against violence which is non declaration. Of course violence cannot be supported. the real danger is if we force these groups underground that some of their members may act out with much more terrible violence.
  - macintux 9y ago
    http://www.snopes.com/were-police-told-stand-down-charlottesville/ http://www.snopes.com/were-police-told-stand-down-charlottes...
    - leereeves 9y ago
      [Removed mistaken post]
      - icebraining 9y ago
        Snopes does cite the tweet, and does say there were brawls and that some people blame the police for not having intervened enough. Which facts have they missed?
        leereeves 9y ago
        My mistake; I shouldn't post while busy with other things.
  - mschuster91 9y ago
    > I am all for letting these "alt-right/left" groups march to their hearts content provided their faces are visible. You do know what happens once neo-Nazis get photos of your face? People are getting harrassed online, then offline, rounded up, beaten and occasionally murdered. Masking is self-protection. And yes there IS a difference between lefties and Nazis masking up: Lefties, generally, don't kill. Worst you get as a Nazi is a beating. Nazis do kill (50 or 68 alone due to terrorist attacks since 9/11, per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_terrorism#cite_ref-NewAmericaTally_39-0 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_terrorism#cite_ref-...). Source: know a couple "outed" activists, got my face distributed by a local Nazi party leader on Youtube.
    - leereeves 9y ago
      > People are getting...rounded up, beaten and occasionally murdered Source? Neo-Nazis rounding up and beating Americans is such an outrageous story that, if it were true, every media outlet in America would be reporting it.
- matt4077 9y ago
  This is insane :( People protesting against Nazis aren't the left-wing equivalent of them. Nazis want genocide. If you don't want to kill all the jews/blacks/muslims you're anti-Nazi, and should, when given the chance, make your opinion known by protesting against them. That means the victim of this terror attack probably wasn't some sort of left-wing "warring protestor", but an actual, rather normal, person. But anyway... The definition of terrorism is politically motivated violence. Not calling this terrorism, when it's using literally the same method as ISIS has been using in the last years, is starting to make it really hard to believe that all these free speech advocates aren't just trying to hide their sympathies for the skinheads they're defending. I mean: there were militia in fatigues with rifles chanting threats outside a synagogue in Charlottesville. The congregation inside could have used some of these people professing their willingness to give their life in the defence of others. But nobody showed up, not even the police, and it's also never mentioned. I wonder why?
- ygaf 9y ago
  Replying to matt, not sure why his post was flagged (aside from veering off my topic): >People protesting against Nazis aren't... >That means... You theorise a lot about the opposing side on this one occasion, that is contrary to what we've seen for a year from american political clashes. >But anyway... The definition of terrorism is politically motivated violence. Not calling this terrorism, when it's using literally the same method as ISIS has been using in the last years, is starting to make it really hard to believe that all these free speech advocates aren't just trying to hide their sympathies for the skinheads they're defending. Drunk drivers "use the same method" to kill people. What's really depressing is the fact that lights a bulb in people's head that says terrorism. It means they don't have actual definitions of words in their heads. I'm not a nazi sympathiser at all, thank you. And believe any of those at Charlottesville truly concerned with white heritage and statues failed themselves by association (nevermind carrying torches..).
officemonkey 9y ago
Many groups radicalize "lone wolves" precisely to do the things that they want done, but want to keep their hands clean. You saw this particularly during the 90s, when people were radicalized to attack and kill abortion doctors. It was rarely called terrorism, but the tactics were the same. The folks who sent hoax anthrax packages to Planned Parenthood offices where mostly lone actors, picking up on their group's radicalizing messages. One could also say Eric Rudolph and Timothy McVeigh were "lone wolves" in that they believed the radicalizing talk, but acted essentially alone.
- leereeves 9y ago
  Is there any evidence this attack was planned or inspired by an ideology, rather than simply an act of rage or fear?
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - officemonkey 9y ago
    If you're an avowed Hitler fan at a #UniteTheRight alt-right rally, and you drive multiple blocks at high speed into a crowd of people, and then drive multiple blocks in reverse at a similar rate of speed in order to evade capture, I think there's enough room to indict.
    - ygaf 9y ago
      If that's what the driver did, I'm sorry for my ignorance (different poster).
leereeves 9y ago
There was a lot more violence than the car attack. The state of emergency was declared before that attack.

ygaf 9y ago

This is why I couldn't believe that terrorism was invoked. (for a second, before accepting the unscrupulous cleverness of it) Terrorism is when a message is sent to the people at large, not what happens between warring protestors. Terrorism is what Theresa May wants to tap internet communications for.

Shivetya 9y ago
to me the key difference is terrorism is premeditated. this violence was the act of one individual and is blown out of proportion. what was not communicated is that only these "alt-right" groups had permission to march and demonstrate and the police were told to not intervene when counter groups who assembled in similar manner without permission were allowed free reign to incite the issue. I am all for letting these "alt-right/left" groups march to their hearts content provided their faces are visible. it gives them an outlet and lets the rest of us know who they are. so while their message may be repugnant they have the right to march. the ACLU recent preening/posturing/etc is shameful compared to their past actions. far too many groups are piling on declaring how they are against violence which is non declaration. Of course violence cannot be supported. the real danger is if we force these groups underground that some of their members may act out with much more terrible violence.
- macintux 9y ago
  http://www.snopes.com/were-police-told-stand-down-charlottesville/ http://www.snopes.com/were-police-told-stand-down-charlottes...
  - leereeves 9y ago
    [Removed mistaken post]
    - icebraining 9y ago
      Snopes does cite the tweet, and does say there were brawls and that some people blame the police for not having intervened enough. Which facts have they missed?
      - leereeves 9y ago
        My mistake; I shouldn't post while busy with other things.
- mschuster91 9y ago
  > I am all for letting these "alt-right/left" groups march to their hearts content provided their faces are visible. You do know what happens once neo-Nazis get photos of your face? People are getting harrassed online, then offline, rounded up, beaten and occasionally murdered. Masking is self-protection. And yes there IS a difference between lefties and Nazis masking up: Lefties, generally, don't kill. Worst you get as a Nazi is a beating. Nazis do kill (50 or 68 alone due to terrorist attacks since 9/11, per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_terrorism#cite_ref-NewAmericaTally_39-0 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-wing_terrorism#cite_ref-...). Source: know a couple "outed" activists, got my face distributed by a local Nazi party leader on Youtube.
  - leereeves 9y ago
    > People are getting...rounded up, beaten and occasionally murdered Source? Neo-Nazis rounding up and beating Americans is such an outrageous story that, if it were true, every media outlet in America would be reporting it.
matt4077 9y ago
This is insane :( People protesting against Nazis aren't the left-wing equivalent of them. Nazis want genocide. If you don't want to kill all the jews/blacks/muslims you're anti-Nazi, and should, when given the chance, make your opinion known by protesting against them. That means the victim of this terror attack probably wasn't some sort of left-wing "warring protestor", but an actual, rather normal, person. But anyway... The definition of terrorism is politically motivated violence. Not calling this terrorism, when it's using literally the same method as ISIS has been using in the last years, is starting to make it really hard to believe that all these free speech advocates aren't just trying to hide their sympathies for the skinheads they're defending. I mean: there were militia in fatigues with rifles chanting threats outside a synagogue in Charlottesville. The congregation inside could have used some of these people professing their willingness to give their life in the defence of others. But nobody showed up, not even the police, and it's also never mentioned. I wonder why?
ygaf 9y ago
Replying to matt, not sure why his post was flagged (aside from veering off my topic): >People protesting against Nazis aren't... >That means... You theorise a lot about the opposing side on this one occasion, that is contrary to what we've seen for a year from american political clashes. >But anyway... The definition of terrorism is politically motivated violence. Not calling this terrorism, when it's using literally the same method as ISIS has been using in the last years, is starting to make it really hard to believe that all these free speech advocates aren't just trying to hide their sympathies for the skinheads they're defending. Drunk drivers "use the same method" to kill people. What's really depressing is the fact that lights a bulb in people's head that says terrorism. It means they don't have actual definitions of words in their heads. I'm not a nazi sympathiser at all, thank you. And believe any of those at Charlottesville truly concerned with white heritage and statues failed themselves by association (nevermind carrying torches..).

officemonkey 9y ago

Many groups radicalize "lone wolves" precisely to do the things that they want done, but want to keep their hands clean. You saw this particularly during the 90s, when people were radicalized to attack and kill abortion doctors. It was rarely called terrorism, but the tactics were the same. The folks who sent hoax anthrax packages to Planned Parenthood offices where mostly lone actors, picking up on their group's radicalizing messages. One could also say Eric Rudolph and Timothy McVeigh were "lone wolves" in that they believed the radicalizing talk, but acted essentially alone.

leereeves 9y ago
Is there any evidence this attack was planned or inspired by an ideology, rather than simply an act of rage or fear?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- officemonkey 9y ago
  If you're an avowed Hitler fan at a #UniteTheRight alt-right rally, and you drive multiple blocks at high speed into a crowd of people, and then drive multiple blocks in reverse at a similar rate of speed in order to evade capture, I think there's enough room to indict.
  - ygaf 9y ago
    If that's what the driver did, I'm sorry for my ignorance (different poster).

leereeves 9y ago

There was a lot more violence than the car attack. The state of emergency was declared before that attack.