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Also, there's the basic fact that most travelers have zero idea how much legroom they'll have (or not have in this case) until they're actually in their seat. I

Also, there's the basic fact that most travelers have zero idea how much legroom they'll have (or not have in this case) until they're actually in their seat. It's bait and switch, and varies not just from airline to airline, but from plane to plane. If consumers actually knew they'd have no legroom, and then chose that option, that would be one thing, but they don't know. I'm 6'3", with long upper legs, so this is a serious issue for me. It's torturous to fly... literally. Either I don't fly, or pay extortionate sums to upgrade. Airlines should be forced to put the legroom space on the ticket and required to honor it. I bet things would be much different if consumers knew how badly they were getting fucked over in clear detail.

sundvor 9y ago
So with you. I'm not particularly wide, but I am 6.22 feet tall, with relatively long femurs. There's nothing I can do about that. I positively hate flying.
- rayiner 9y ago
  Airline seat pitch never bothers me (5-9 and mostly torso) but in any event it's like $50-100 to upgrade to economy+. What's the grievance?
  - sundvor 9y ago
    There's no room for my knees, perhaps unless if I sit fully upright with zero slouch, and the person ahead isn't reclining their seat. Air travel is already expensive enough. I'm not in the US. Why should I need to pay extra for something I have no control over?
  - NickNameNick 9y ago
    That really depends on where you are. For me, exit row/prefered seating is a worthwhile upgrade at ~$100/per 12 hr leg, but there are only a few of those seats on each flight, and they're often unavailable. Premium is double the cost of economy, and business is double the cost of premium. Neither myself nor my employers have that kind of travel budget.
  - stephencanon 9y ago
    I'm only 6'3" (long legs, though), and even in non-exit-row economy+, my knees are against the seat in front of me if they recline. The seat height is also an inch or two too low tall people, which puts significant stress on your knees-mine are noticeably tender for a few days after a 5+ flight. I am happy to pay for business personally, but corporate policy limits to coach for domestic flights, and the odds of getting an upgrade on the routes I fly (BOS-SFO most often) are slim unless you're in the higher status tiers.
    - sundvor 9y ago
      I really don't fly that often, and will drive rather than fly Melbourne-Sydney if given the option. On my twice a decade (quinquennial?) Australia-Norway flights I just have to suffer though; I don't have the budget to justify spending extra on seats. Often I'll see people 2/3rd my length on the emergency seats on those flights and wonder about the fairness of life... ;) I got a free upgrade to emergency exit on a domestic Virgin flight a couple of years ago, by a check-in person who looked me over and figured that'd be a nice thing to ask if I'd like. Perhaps a small gesture to them, but I won't forget that for a while. Fwiw, my femur length is a blocker for my catching trains in Melbourne as the seats are typically designed to face each other in pairs, and my knees are well past the half way mark even with my bum firmly against the back seat with zero slouch.
  - richardknop 9y ago
    I'm 6'4" and economy plus is too small for me. The only way I can fit into the seat is in a completely upright position with my knees pressed into the seat in front of me. It gets even worse once the person on front of me reclines his/her seat. It's physically painful for me to stay in that position for more than 1-2 hours so I'd only do a business class for long haul flights. And of course business class is very prohibitively priced for me personally so I avoid flying long distances at all. If the company wants me to fly somewhere further than 2 hours away, I will demand a business class seat. Otherwise I will tell them I'm not going for health reasons and they should send somebody smaller who can fit into the tiny seat more comfortably.
    - malandrew 9y ago
      > It's physically painful for me to stay in that position for more than 1-2 hours so I'd only do a business class for long haul flights. I honestly think that being too tall finally fits the legal definition of a disability: "a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities of such individual;" https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/12102 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/12102 Air travel definitely meets the criteria for being a major life activity.
Shivetya 9y ago
First Class seems to have roomier seats but on some planes I don't think there is much improvement to leg room, well at least domestic short flights. which brings up another point, unless you are taking those one off sale seats always check the prices of first class. a small fee could land you at the front of the plane with preferential boarding.
- mercurysmessage 9y ago
  I don't get preferential boarding. You are rushing to get on the plane to sit down first. Everyone boards after, so you are sitting there while everyone goes by. For leaving, yes it's nice. But if I had preferential, I'd rather board after coach has.
  - maehwasu 9y ago
    I agree with you for economy, but when I fly biz/1st class I'd rather get settled in my nice seat than wait in the gate area.
  - delecti 9y ago
    With non-first class there's an advantage to getting on first to ensure there's room for your carry-on in the overhead bins. And with first class the advantage is the seats are much more comfortable than the terminal and the flight attendants start serving you immediately.
  - zippergz 9y ago
    In addition to what delecti said (getting room in the overhead bin is crucial), I also personally find it more relaxing to get on earlier, even if the seat isn't that comfortable. I can find my seat, put on my headphones, and zone out for the most part. If I'm waiting at the gate, I have to stay on high alert to listen for boarding announcements (often obscured by announcements from other gates), the area is likely very crowded and chaotic, and the seating is rarely much more comfortable than what is on the plane.
  - yardie 9y ago
    Not sure how it is in the US but First class at CDG, LHR, and FRA has a separate security line, preferred boarding, and a greater luggage/carryon allowance. You are served champagne and appetizers, given a hot towel and slippers for the flight. While everyone down the back is rushing to clear security, check-in, get a sit and find space for their carryon you are on the way to a second cocktail. If you can afford it or get it it's a really great way to fly.
raverbashing 9y ago
And if anyone wants to know how big is the seat space: https://www.seatguru.com/ https://www.seatguru.com/
norea-armozel 9y ago
I'm 6'4 and I flew once to see family back home. It was a nightmare. I don't think I ever was able to settle well enough into my seat since my knees were always getting bumped (no fault of the fellow passengers when they pack us in like sardines). I'll never fly again. They'd have to sedate me to get me to fly. It's just too cramped. I've been on greyhound buses that are roomier.
- delecti 9y ago
  > I've been on greyhound buses that are roomier You say this like it was a freak occurrence. I've not been on a Greyhound bus or Amtrak train that was less comfortable than every single flight I've ever flown (with the exception of a single delightful first class flight).
cafard 9y ago
You don't have to be tall. A cousin suffered a knee injury from a seat back jammed against her, and she is maybe 5'6".
bskap 9y ago
Google Flights lists legroom if you expand the details, but I've never taken a tape measure to make sure it's accurate.
malandrew 9y ago
Completely agree with this. I'm 6'5" (196cm) and on most flights my femur is approximately the pitch of the seat. I have no choice but to "manspread" on many flights.
MR4D 9y ago
I'm the same height. I still don't understand how OSHA has authority over my desk and lighting in my office, but nobody has authority over airline seat size. Frankly in a crash landing (even a hard landing), anyone as tall as we are is going to have at least a broken nose. Not sure what it takes to rectify this situation.

sundvor 9y ago

So with you. I'm not particularly wide, but I am 6.22 feet tall, with relatively long femurs. There's nothing I can do about that. I positively hate flying.

rayiner 9y ago
Airline seat pitch never bothers me (5-9 and mostly torso) but in any event it's like $50-100 to upgrade to economy+. What's the grievance?
- sundvor 9y ago
  There's no room for my knees, perhaps unless if I sit fully upright with zero slouch, and the person ahead isn't reclining their seat. Air travel is already expensive enough. I'm not in the US. Why should I need to pay extra for something I have no control over?
- NickNameNick 9y ago
  That really depends on where you are. For me, exit row/prefered seating is a worthwhile upgrade at ~$100/per 12 hr leg, but there are only a few of those seats on each flight, and they're often unavailable. Premium is double the cost of economy, and business is double the cost of premium. Neither myself nor my employers have that kind of travel budget.
- stephencanon 9y ago
  I'm only 6'3" (long legs, though), and even in non-exit-row economy+, my knees are against the seat in front of me if they recline. The seat height is also an inch or two too low tall people, which puts significant stress on your knees-mine are noticeably tender for a few days after a 5+ flight. I am happy to pay for business personally, but corporate policy limits to coach for domestic flights, and the odds of getting an upgrade on the routes I fly (BOS-SFO most often) are slim unless you're in the higher status tiers.
  - sundvor 9y ago
    I really don't fly that often, and will drive rather than fly Melbourne-Sydney if given the option. On my twice a decade (quinquennial?) Australia-Norway flights I just have to suffer though; I don't have the budget to justify spending extra on seats. Often I'll see people 2/3rd my length on the emergency seats on those flights and wonder about the fairness of life... ;) I got a free upgrade to emergency exit on a domestic Virgin flight a couple of years ago, by a check-in person who looked me over and figured that'd be a nice thing to ask if I'd like. Perhaps a small gesture to them, but I won't forget that for a while. Fwiw, my femur length is a blocker for my catching trains in Melbourne as the seats are typically designed to face each other in pairs, and my knees are well past the half way mark even with my bum firmly against the back seat with zero slouch.
- richardknop 9y ago
  I'm 6'4" and economy plus is too small for me. The only way I can fit into the seat is in a completely upright position with my knees pressed into the seat in front of me. It gets even worse once the person on front of me reclines his/her seat. It's physically painful for me to stay in that position for more than 1-2 hours so I'd only do a business class for long haul flights. And of course business class is very prohibitively priced for me personally so I avoid flying long distances at all. If the company wants me to fly somewhere further than 2 hours away, I will demand a business class seat. Otherwise I will tell them I'm not going for health reasons and they should send somebody smaller who can fit into the tiny seat more comfortably.
  - malandrew 9y ago
    > It's physically painful for me to stay in that position for more than 1-2 hours so I'd only do a business class for long haul flights. I honestly think that being too tall finally fits the legal definition of a disability: "a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities of such individual;" https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/12102 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/12102 Air travel definitely meets the criteria for being a major life activity.

Shivetya 9y ago

First Class seems to have roomier seats but on some planes I don't think there is much improvement to leg room, well at least domestic short flights. which brings up another point, unless you are taking those one off sale seats always check the prices of first class. a small fee could land you at the front of the plane with preferential boarding.

mercurysmessage 9y ago
I don't get preferential boarding. You are rushing to get on the plane to sit down first. Everyone boards after, so you are sitting there while everyone goes by. For leaving, yes it's nice. But if I had preferential, I'd rather board after coach has.
- maehwasu 9y ago
  I agree with you for economy, but when I fly biz/1st class I'd rather get settled in my nice seat than wait in the gate area.
- delecti 9y ago
  With non-first class there's an advantage to getting on first to ensure there's room for your carry-on in the overhead bins. And with first class the advantage is the seats are much more comfortable than the terminal and the flight attendants start serving you immediately.
- zippergz 9y ago
  In addition to what delecti said (getting room in the overhead bin is crucial), I also personally find it more relaxing to get on earlier, even if the seat isn't that comfortable. I can find my seat, put on my headphones, and zone out for the most part. If I'm waiting at the gate, I have to stay on high alert to listen for boarding announcements (often obscured by announcements from other gates), the area is likely very crowded and chaotic, and the seating is rarely much more comfortable than what is on the plane.
- yardie 9y ago
  Not sure how it is in the US but First class at CDG, LHR, and FRA has a separate security line, preferred boarding, and a greater luggage/carryon allowance. You are served champagne and appetizers, given a hot towel and slippers for the flight. While everyone down the back is rushing to clear security, check-in, get a sit and find space for their carryon you are on the way to a second cocktail. If you can afford it or get it it's a really great way to fly.

raverbashing 9y ago

And if anyone wants to know how big is the seat space: https://www.seatguru.com/ https://www.seatguru.com/

norea-armozel 9y ago

I'm 6'4 and I flew once to see family back home. It was a nightmare. I don't think I ever was able to settle well enough into my seat since my knees were always getting bumped (no fault of the fellow passengers when they pack us in like sardines). I'll never fly again. They'd have to sedate me to get me to fly. It's just too cramped. I've been on greyhound buses that are roomier.

delecti 9y ago
> I've been on greyhound buses that are roomier You say this like it was a freak occurrence. I've not been on a Greyhound bus or Amtrak train that was less comfortable than every single flight I've ever flown (with the exception of a single delightful first class flight).

cafard 9y ago

You don't have to be tall. A cousin suffered a knee injury from a seat back jammed against her, and she is maybe 5'6".

bskap 9y ago

Google Flights lists legroom if you expand the details, but I've never taken a tape measure to make sure it's accurate.

malandrew 9y ago

Completely agree with this. I'm 6'5" (196cm) and on most flights my femur is approximately the pitch of the seat. I have no choice but to "manspread" on many flights.

MR4D 9y ago

I'm the same height. I still don't understand how OSHA has authority over my desk and lighting in my office, but nobody has authority over airline seat size. Frankly in a crash landing (even a hard landing), anyone as tall as we are is going to have at least a broken nose. Not sure what it takes to rectify this situation.