8 ms·

I'm kinda astonished that this even needs to be negotiated. It should be the default at any half-decent employer.

by jlangenauer 9y ago

ido 9y ago
The problem is that a lot of people aren't capable of working remotely and/or treat work from home as a day off.
- ssijak 9y ago
  That could easily be seen by half decent manager or team lead.
- mk89 9y ago
  Indeed! And also due to some bad apples, the entire category of people willing to work from home is considered as a bunch of slackers - so you want to "work" from home, uh? What they don't know is that when I work from home I produce 1.3-1.5x more than when I work at the office - do I like to work everyday from home, though? No!
- christophilus 9y ago
  Really? That hasn't been my experience at all. On any engineering team I've ever worked with. What field are you in? Are you basing your statement off of personal experience? If so, how many people have you seen behave this way?
  - spdionis 9y ago
    I confirm for the GP based on my own personal experience.
  - pebers 9y ago
    I'm not the OP, obviously, but have had similar experiences. At a previous employer my team had a WFH day once a week, on which maybe 10-20% of people would work from home and be roughly as productive as they were in the office, 60% would take it and not do much or be responsive (e.g. if you pinged them about something, you'd be lucky to get a response in less than an hour) and the rest of us rarely took it up. So that is based off experience, albeit anecdotal. I accept that it's possible to have a team that would do significantly better than that, but definitely don't agree with the utopian view that you can offer WFH to just any employee and they'll be productive, and crucially that it won't affect other employees who might need their input.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - Moru 9y ago
      Humans are all different, not everyone can work from home and not everyone can work in an office. That is just the way we humans work. Some love to work in a busy kitchen stressing the whole day and then cook when they come home too. Others can't see a kitchen when they get home.
      - clarry 9y ago
        I wonder how much "can't work from home" comes from lack of experience. Remote work is still rather rare, and when people first try it, it's quite possible they haven't grown the discipline it requires. Could it come with time? Could people change?
        Moru 9y ago
        I'm not talking about dicipline, that is just an easy excuse to tell people to get their act together instead of just accepting that we all are diffrent. Some have troubles around other people, others cant be alone.
    - gjjrfcbugxbhf 9y ago
      > be responsive (e.g. if you pinged them about something, you'd be lucky to get a response in less than an hour) Maybe this is because this is the day they actually used to implement stuff free of people asking them questions about other stuff...
- StreakyCobra 9y ago
  Yes! And discussing this on HN is totally biasing our impression on the subject. HN is full [1-5] of INTJ, sometime refereed a "problem-solver", and INTP who I believe share, at least partially, the same love of solving problem. Not all personality types are willing to solve problems (aka working) for their own intrinsic motivation. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=204240 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=204240 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=943722 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=943722 [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1675197 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1675197 [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7033047 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7033047 [5] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7365294 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7365294
  - padolsey 9y ago
    I don't know if I buy into that as a line of reasoning. I'm ostensibly an INFP and I actually love problem-solving (hence being a programmer). When I work from home I am motivated to work for a number of reasons: - It's interesting / challenging - A sense of duty / professionalism - A sense of teamwork / camaraderie This is entirely anecdotal of course. I also will often head to a cafe to get some 'human/ambient' time (another motivator). Being at home can be lonely.
    - dagaci 9y ago
      INFP are also strong problem solvers as can be any type when motivated... I think an INTP won't be deeply aware of motivations outside of the problem itself while INTJ will be much more selfishly calculated which is why they tend to make more money.
    - StreakyCobra 9y ago
      The fact that INTJ and INTP may usually be problem-solvers does not mean that other types may not be as well. A -> B doesn't mean than ¬A -> ¬B I'm just saying that HN is really biased toward known problem-solving personalities, this should be taken into account in the context of this discussion :-)
      - 9y ago
- xroche 9y ago
  > The problem is that a lot of people aren't capable of working remotely and/or treat work from home as a day off. My guess: these people aren't very productive or useful when stuck 8 hours in an office either. Be micro-managed (by your manager, or by peer pressure in an open-space) is not a reasonable way of having productive engineers.
- DugFin 9y ago
  The problem is that a lot of people aren't capable of working remotely and/or treat work from home as a day off. Well, that's half the problem. The other half is the tendency of many managers to view all requests to work from home as a request to stay home and goof off on the clock. I've worked places where the apparent measure of productivity is how many aggregate ass-in-seat hours the department put in.
- rifung 9y ago
  Well, I admit I slack more when I work from home, but that's usually because typically reason I work from home is that I'm so tired of working or depressed I can't convince myself to actually go to work. Now often I'll just take a sick day though but do some work.
- maxxxxx 9y ago
  Unfortunately that's true. And the people who actually work better from home suffer from that. Sometimes I work several days from home and I really get into a flow and reach a depth of work that I can never achieve in a loud open office. My direct manager is OK with that but the guy one level up always makes comments about people not in the office so I guess for promotions and raises it's better to be in the office.
- song 9y ago
  As someone who has hired people for remote position, it's a problem I've run into. A lot of people who look great on paper , have a lot of experience and seem a great fit actually do poorly working from home. It takes a certain kind of mindset to work well from home. I'm now always a bit wary about hiring someone who has never worked remotely because I know the chances it won't work out are high.

I'm kinda astonished that this even needs to be negotiated. It should be the default at any half-decent employer.

ido 9y ago

The problem is that a lot of people aren't capable of working remotely and/or treat work from home as a day off.

ssijak 9y ago
That could easily be seen by half decent manager or team lead.
mk89 9y ago
Indeed! And also due to some bad apples, the entire category of people willing to work from home is considered as a bunch of slackers - so you want to "work" from home, uh? What they don't know is that when I work from home I produce 1.3-1.5x more than when I work at the office - do I like to work everyday from home, though? No!
christophilus 9y ago
Really? That hasn't been my experience at all. On any engineering team I've ever worked with. What field are you in? Are you basing your statement off of personal experience? If so, how many people have you seen behave this way?
- spdionis 9y ago
  I confirm for the GP based on my own personal experience.
- pebers 9y ago
  I'm not the OP, obviously, but have had similar experiences. At a previous employer my team had a WFH day once a week, on which maybe 10-20% of people would work from home and be roughly as productive as they were in the office, 60% would take it and not do much or be responsive (e.g. if you pinged them about something, you'd be lucky to get a response in less than an hour) and the rest of us rarely took it up. So that is based off experience, albeit anecdotal. I accept that it's possible to have a team that would do significantly better than that, but definitely don't agree with the utopian view that you can offer WFH to just any employee and they'll be productive, and crucially that it won't affect other employees who might need their input.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - Moru 9y ago
    Humans are all different, not everyone can work from home and not everyone can work in an office. That is just the way we humans work. Some love to work in a busy kitchen stressing the whole day and then cook when they come home too. Others can't see a kitchen when they get home.
    - clarry 9y ago
      I wonder how much "can't work from home" comes from lack of experience. Remote work is still rather rare, and when people first try it, it's quite possible they haven't grown the discipline it requires. Could it come with time? Could people change?
      - Moru 9y ago
        I'm not talking about dicipline, that is just an easy excuse to tell people to get their act together instead of just accepting that we all are diffrent. Some have troubles around other people, others cant be alone.
  - gjjrfcbugxbhf 9y ago
    > be responsive (e.g. if you pinged them about something, you'd be lucky to get a response in less than an hour) Maybe this is because this is the day they actually used to implement stuff free of people asking them questions about other stuff...
StreakyCobra 9y ago
Yes! And discussing this on HN is totally biasing our impression on the subject. HN is full [1-5] of INTJ, sometime refereed a "problem-solver", and INTP who I believe share, at least partially, the same love of solving problem. Not all personality types are willing to solve problems (aka working) for their own intrinsic motivation. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=204240 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=204240 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=943722 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=943722 [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1675197 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1675197 [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7033047 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7033047 [5] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7365294 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7365294
- padolsey 9y ago
  I don't know if I buy into that as a line of reasoning. I'm ostensibly an INFP and I actually love problem-solving (hence being a programmer). When I work from home I am motivated to work for a number of reasons: - It's interesting / challenging - A sense of duty / professionalism - A sense of teamwork / camaraderie This is entirely anecdotal of course. I also will often head to a cafe to get some 'human/ambient' time (another motivator). Being at home can be lonely.
  - dagaci 9y ago
    INFP are also strong problem solvers as can be any type when motivated... I think an INTP won't be deeply aware of motivations outside of the problem itself while INTJ will be much more selfishly calculated which is why they tend to make more money.
  - StreakyCobra 9y ago
    The fact that INTJ and INTP may usually be problem-solvers does not mean that other types may not be as well. A -> B doesn't mean than ¬A -> ¬B I'm just saying that HN is really biased toward known problem-solving personalities, this should be taken into account in the context of this discussion :-)
    - 9y ago
xroche 9y ago
> The problem is that a lot of people aren't capable of working remotely and/or treat work from home as a day off. My guess: these people aren't very productive or useful when stuck 8 hours in an office either. Be micro-managed (by your manager, or by peer pressure in an open-space) is not a reasonable way of having productive engineers.
DugFin 9y ago
The problem is that a lot of people aren't capable of working remotely and/or treat work from home as a day off. Well, that's half the problem. The other half is the tendency of many managers to view all requests to work from home as a request to stay home and goof off on the clock. I've worked places where the apparent measure of productivity is how many aggregate ass-in-seat hours the department put in.
rifung 9y ago
Well, I admit I slack more when I work from home, but that's usually because typically reason I work from home is that I'm so tired of working or depressed I can't convince myself to actually go to work. Now often I'll just take a sick day though but do some work.
maxxxxx 9y ago
Unfortunately that's true. And the people who actually work better from home suffer from that. Sometimes I work several days from home and I really get into a flow and reach a depth of work that I can never achieve in a loud open office. My direct manager is OK with that but the guy one level up always makes comments about people not in the office so I guess for promotions and raises it's better to be in the office.
song 9y ago
As someone who has hired people for remote position, it's a problem I've run into. A lot of people who look great on paper , have a lot of experience and seem a great fit actually do poorly working from home. It takes a certain kind of mindset to work well from home. I'm now always a bit wary about hiring someone who has never worked remotely because I know the chances it won't work out are high.