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I find that I struggle with offices... you're stuck there for 8+ hours (even if you don't work that way, you need to create an impression), but after several ho

I find that I struggle with offices... you're stuck there for 8+ hours (even if you don't work that way, you need to create an impression), but after several hour of intense focus and the noise and chaos of an open office, I can feel drained and anxious. Some days I'll walk to a nearby park with wifi after work, meditate for a short bit, and then code from there. My focus and creativity comes right back after a bit of downtime in a relaxing space.

ssijak 9y ago
That is exact reason I negotiated "work from home whenever you want" with the employer. It was either I quit because I could not stand random daily useless noise and chatter of the office or I can work from home and be more productive.
- jlangenauer 9y ago
  I'm kinda astonished that this even needs to be negotiated. It should be the default at any half-decent employer.
  - ido 9y ago
    The problem is that a lot of people aren't capable of working remotely and/or treat work from home as a day off.
    - ssijak 9y ago
      That could easily be seen by half decent manager or team lead.
    - mk89 9y ago
      Indeed! And also due to some bad apples, the entire category of people willing to work from home is considered as a bunch of slackers - so you want to "work" from home, uh? What they don't know is that when I work from home I produce 1.3-1.5x more than when I work at the office - do I like to work everyday from home, though? No!
    - christophilus 9y ago
      Really? That hasn't been my experience at all. On any engineering team I've ever worked with. What field are you in? Are you basing your statement off of personal experience? If so, how many people have you seen behave this way?
      - spdionis 9y ago
        I confirm for the GP based on my own personal experience.
      - pebers 9y ago
        I'm not the OP, obviously, but have had similar experiences. At a previous employer my team had a WFH day once a week, on which maybe 10-20% of people would work from home and be roughly as productive as they were in the office, 60% would take it and not do much or be responsive (e.g. if you pinged them about something, you'd be lucky to get a response in less than an hour) and the rest of us rarely took it up. So that is based off experience, albeit anecdotal. I accept that it's possible to have a team that would do significantly better than that, but definitely don't agree with the utopian view that you can offer WFH to just any employee and they'll be productive, and crucially that it won't affect other employees who might need their input.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
        Moru 9y ago
        Humans are all different, not everyone can work from home and not everyone can work in an office. That is just the way we humans work. Some love to work in a busy kitchen stressing the whole day and then cook when they come home too. Others can't see a kitchen when they get home.
        clarry 9y ago
        I wonder how much "can't work from home" comes from lack of experience. Remote work is still rather rare, and when people first try it, it's quite possible they haven't grown the discipline it requires. Could it come with time? Could people change?
    - StreakyCobra 9y ago
      Yes! And discussing this on HN is totally biasing our impression on the subject. HN is full [1-5] of INTJ, sometime refereed a "problem-solver", and INTP who I believe share, at least partially, the same love of solving problem. Not all personality types are willing to solve problems (aka working) for their own intrinsic motivation. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=204240 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=204240 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=943722 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=943722 [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1675197 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1675197 [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7033047 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7033047 [5] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7365294 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7365294
      - padolsey 9y ago
        I don't know if I buy into that as a line of reasoning. I'm ostensibly an INFP and I actually love problem-solving (hence being a programmer). When I work from home I am motivated to work for a number of reasons: - It's interesting / challenging - A sense of duty / professionalism - A sense of teamwork / camaraderie This is entirely anecdotal of course. I also will often head to a cafe to get some 'human/ambient' time (another motivator). Being at home can be lonely.
        dagaci 9y ago
        INFP are also strong problem solvers as can be any type when motivated... I think an INTP won't be deeply aware of motivations outside of the problem itself while INTJ will be much more selfishly calculated which is why they tend to make more money.
        StreakyCobra 9y ago
        The fact that INTJ and INTP may usually be problem-solvers does not mean that other types may not be as well. A -> B doesn't mean than ¬A -> ¬B I'm just saying that HN is really biased toward known problem-solving personalities, this should be taken into account in the context of this discussion :-)
        9y ago
    - xroche 9y ago
      > The problem is that a lot of people aren't capable of working remotely and/or treat work from home as a day off. My guess: these people aren't very productive or useful when stuck 8 hours in an office either. Be micro-managed (by your manager, or by peer pressure in an open-space) is not a reasonable way of having productive engineers.
    - DugFin 9y ago
      The problem is that a lot of people aren't capable of working remotely and/or treat work from home as a day off. Well, that's half the problem. The other half is the tendency of many managers to view all requests to work from home as a request to stay home and goof off on the clock. I've worked places where the apparent measure of productivity is how many aggregate ass-in-seat hours the department put in.
    - rifung 9y ago
      Well, I admit I slack more when I work from home, but that's usually because typically reason I work from home is that I'm so tired of working or depressed I can't convince myself to actually go to work. Now often I'll just take a sick day though but do some work.
    - maxxxxx 9y ago
      Unfortunately that's true. And the people who actually work better from home suffer from that. Sometimes I work several days from home and I really get into a flow and reach a depth of work that I can never achieve in a loud open office. My direct manager is OK with that but the guy one level up always makes comments about people not in the office so I guess for promotions and raises it's better to be in the office.
    - song 9y ago
      As someone who has hired people for remote position, it's a problem I've run into. A lot of people who look great on paper , have a lot of experience and seem a great fit actually do poorly working from home. It takes a certain kind of mindset to work well from home. I'm now always a bit wary about hiring someone who has never worked remotely because I know the chances it won't work out are high.
mal808 9y ago
Some good noise cancelling headphones are very helpful in this type of environment. If you can't get out of the office this is the next best option.
- raducu 9y ago
  I use ear muffs over my in-ear headphones, the noise isolation is really good, but it gets uncomfortable after a while. Also some extroverted coworkers complain about my earmuffs isolating me from the team.
  - jeffhuys 9y ago
    > complain about my earmuffs isolating me from the team Siiiiigh... http://i.imgur.com/cXBhfPt.png http://i.imgur.com/cXBhfPt.png
Boothroid 9y ago
I have to work in windowless offices commonly. Every couple of hours I'll go outside and stare at the sun (with my eyes shut) just to give my brain a boost of daytime hormones. Works well. Only works in summer though!
- JustSomeNobody 9y ago
  Works year round in Florida!
- maxxxxx 9y ago
  That's one of the reasons I like working from home. I can look out the window and think about things. Most bosses like that too. Its hard to understand that a lot of companies think that people working in windowless, loud offices is a good thing.
  - kerbalspacepro 9y ago
    I think most companies don't think the windowless thing is good... it's just not relevant. They don't care, or it is closer to the manufacturing floor or it's just, honestly, expedient. The vast majority of company management chains simply don't care about their performers.
    - maxxxxx 9y ago
      You are probably right.
    - stult 9y ago
      Or it's relevant for the opposite purpose when it's a secured environment.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
curun1r 9y ago
When I managed a team, I tried to encourage my team members to take walks during the day. I've always found they help me get to a more reflective mindset as well as the movement and sunlight getting me back to a state where I can focus. But, more importantly, I wanted to avoid a culture where people felt like they needed "ass in chair" time to prove they'd worked. If everyone saw everyone else getting up and going elsewhere multiple times per day, they'd feel comfortable doing the same. It worked, in some sense...we got more done than most teams. But on an organization-wide basis, we got a bit of a reputation in other teams of being absent a lot which I constantly had to push back against during callibrations when deciding raises and promotions. Overall, it was both encouraging, since I'm now convinced that humans work better in short bursts followed by at least some physical activity, but also discouraging in the organizational friction I encountered in my experiment.

ssijak 9y ago

That is exact reason I negotiated "work from home whenever you want" with the employer. It was either I quit because I could not stand random daily useless noise and chatter of the office or I can work from home and be more productive.

jlangenauer 9y ago
I'm kinda astonished that this even needs to be negotiated. It should be the default at any half-decent employer.
- ido 9y ago
  The problem is that a lot of people aren't capable of working remotely and/or treat work from home as a day off.
  - ssijak 9y ago
    That could easily be seen by half decent manager or team lead.
  - mk89 9y ago
    Indeed! And also due to some bad apples, the entire category of people willing to work from home is considered as a bunch of slackers - so you want to "work" from home, uh? What they don't know is that when I work from home I produce 1.3-1.5x more than when I work at the office - do I like to work everyday from home, though? No!
  - christophilus 9y ago
    Really? That hasn't been my experience at all. On any engineering team I've ever worked with. What field are you in? Are you basing your statement off of personal experience? If so, how many people have you seen behave this way?
    - spdionis 9y ago
      I confirm for the GP based on my own personal experience.
    - pebers 9y ago
      I'm not the OP, obviously, but have had similar experiences. At a previous employer my team had a WFH day once a week, on which maybe 10-20% of people would work from home and be roughly as productive as they were in the office, 60% would take it and not do much or be responsive (e.g. if you pinged them about something, you'd be lucky to get a response in less than an hour) and the rest of us rarely took it up. So that is based off experience, albeit anecdotal. I accept that it's possible to have a team that would do significantly better than that, but definitely don't agree with the utopian view that you can offer WFH to just any employee and they'll be productive, and crucially that it won't affect other employees who might need their input.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - Moru 9y ago
        Humans are all different, not everyone can work from home and not everyone can work in an office. That is just the way we humans work. Some love to work in a busy kitchen stressing the whole day and then cook when they come home too. Others can't see a kitchen when they get home.
        clarry 9y ago
        I wonder how much "can't work from home" comes from lack of experience. Remote work is still rather rare, and when people first try it, it's quite possible they haven't grown the discipline it requires. Could it come with time? Could people change?
  - StreakyCobra 9y ago
    Yes! And discussing this on HN is totally biasing our impression on the subject. HN is full [1-5] of INTJ, sometime refereed a "problem-solver", and INTP who I believe share, at least partially, the same love of solving problem. Not all personality types are willing to solve problems (aka working) for their own intrinsic motivation. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=204240 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=204240 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=943722 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=943722 [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1675197 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1675197 [4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7033047 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7033047 [5] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7365294 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7365294
    - padolsey 9y ago
      I don't know if I buy into that as a line of reasoning. I'm ostensibly an INFP and I actually love problem-solving (hence being a programmer). When I work from home I am motivated to work for a number of reasons: - It's interesting / challenging - A sense of duty / professionalism - A sense of teamwork / camaraderie This is entirely anecdotal of course. I also will often head to a cafe to get some 'human/ambient' time (another motivator). Being at home can be lonely.
      - dagaci 9y ago
        INFP are also strong problem solvers as can be any type when motivated... I think an INTP won't be deeply aware of motivations outside of the problem itself while INTJ will be much more selfishly calculated which is why they tend to make more money.
      - StreakyCobra 9y ago
        The fact that INTJ and INTP may usually be problem-solvers does not mean that other types may not be as well. A -> B doesn't mean than ¬A -> ¬B I'm just saying that HN is really biased toward known problem-solving personalities, this should be taken into account in the context of this discussion :-)
        9y ago
  - xroche 9y ago
    > The problem is that a lot of people aren't capable of working remotely and/or treat work from home as a day off. My guess: these people aren't very productive or useful when stuck 8 hours in an office either. Be micro-managed (by your manager, or by peer pressure in an open-space) is not a reasonable way of having productive engineers.
  - DugFin 9y ago
    The problem is that a lot of people aren't capable of working remotely and/or treat work from home as a day off. Well, that's half the problem. The other half is the tendency of many managers to view all requests to work from home as a request to stay home and goof off on the clock. I've worked places where the apparent measure of productivity is how many aggregate ass-in-seat hours the department put in.
  - rifung 9y ago
    Well, I admit I slack more when I work from home, but that's usually because typically reason I work from home is that I'm so tired of working or depressed I can't convince myself to actually go to work. Now often I'll just take a sick day though but do some work.
  - maxxxxx 9y ago
    Unfortunately that's true. And the people who actually work better from home suffer from that. Sometimes I work several days from home and I really get into a flow and reach a depth of work that I can never achieve in a loud open office. My direct manager is OK with that but the guy one level up always makes comments about people not in the office so I guess for promotions and raises it's better to be in the office.
  - song 9y ago
    As someone who has hired people for remote position, it's a problem I've run into. A lot of people who look great on paper , have a lot of experience and seem a great fit actually do poorly working from home. It takes a certain kind of mindset to work well from home. I'm now always a bit wary about hiring someone who has never worked remotely because I know the chances it won't work out are high.

mal808 9y ago

Some good noise cancelling headphones are very helpful in this type of environment. If you can't get out of the office this is the next best option.

raducu 9y ago
I use ear muffs over my in-ear headphones, the noise isolation is really good, but it gets uncomfortable after a while. Also some extroverted coworkers complain about my earmuffs isolating me from the team.
- jeffhuys 9y ago
  > complain about my earmuffs isolating me from the team Siiiiigh... http://i.imgur.com/cXBhfPt.png http://i.imgur.com/cXBhfPt.png

Boothroid 9y ago

I have to work in windowless offices commonly. Every couple of hours I'll go outside and stare at the sun (with my eyes shut) just to give my brain a boost of daytime hormones. Works well. Only works in summer though!

JustSomeNobody 9y ago
Works year round in Florida!
maxxxxx 9y ago
That's one of the reasons I like working from home. I can look out the window and think about things. Most bosses like that too. Its hard to understand that a lot of companies think that people working in windowless, loud offices is a good thing.
- kerbalspacepro 9y ago
  I think most companies don't think the windowless thing is good... it's just not relevant. They don't care, or it is closer to the manufacturing floor or it's just, honestly, expedient. The vast majority of company management chains simply don't care about their performers.
  - maxxxxx 9y ago
    You are probably right.
  - stult 9y ago
    Or it's relevant for the opposite purpose when it's a secured environment.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

curun1r 9y ago

When I managed a team, I tried to encourage my team members to take walks during the day. I've always found they help me get to a more reflective mindset as well as the movement and sunlight getting me back to a state where I can focus. But, more importantly, I wanted to avoid a culture where people felt like they needed "ass in chair" time to prove they'd worked. If everyone saw everyone else getting up and going elsewhere multiple times per day, they'd feel comfortable doing the same. It worked, in some sense...we got more done than most teams. But on an organization-wide basis, we got a bit of a reputation in other teams of being absent a lot which I constantly had to push back against during callibrations when deciding raises and promotions. Overall, it was both encouraging, since I'm now convinced that humans work better in short bursts followed by at least some physical activity, but also discouraging in the organizational friction I encountered in my experiment.