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I currently live in Cleveland. It's alright, but the author is going to be in for quite a shock regarding >clean, vibrant downtown area, ... good transit (inc

I currently live in Cleveland. It's alright, but the author is going to be in for quite a shock regarding >clean, vibrant downtown area, ... good transit (including lightrail), a diverse economy The city is extremely dirty and constantly has a very bad smell, and the RTA (public transit) is a disaster. The direct downtown area is essentially just a massive parking lot. The economy also consists entirely of the Cleveland Clinic and a few other large health care corporations. Not exactly what I'd call diverse. Other than that it's pretty average, there are fun things to do but you're going to run out fairly quick.

ahhhhhhhhhh 9y ago
I grew up in Springfield, MA — and I was seeing similar red flags reading his post about Cleveland. Springfield also has a very clean heart of downtown, but it's a total ghost town after 5pm and really only has one significantly sized employer (there are also museums and good places to eat in Springfield). "Clean" means nothing for a downtown area. Real estate is also very cheap because no one wants to live there (few jobs, violence) and people struggle to upkeep the very large houses from the times when Springfield was actually prosperous.
- tcbawo 9y ago
  Cleveland is by no means a large city, but the Metropolitan population is probably 4-5 times that of Springfield, MA. Also, Cleveland peaked in population 60+ years ago, so the housing stock is relatively old and cheap, and the cultural landmarks are outsized for a city it's size. Like Detroit, the suburbs were more prosperous than the city center, although there is massive resurgence happening downtown with breweries, restaurants, and art galleries popping up everywhere. There are many large, lofty buildings that are incredibly cheap (like Chicago's West Loop 30 years ago). Overall it seems like a turnaround story similar to Pittsburgh and Detroit.
cmdlinerambo 9y ago
I disagree about RTA comment. I take the 55 almost everyday and it is super clean. The city used to be dirty, but has been rejuvenated from public square to the east bank. It's really bike friendly as far as transportation goes as well.
- lightbyte 9y ago
  It is definitely more bike friendly than some cities, that's true. Plenty of bike lanes have been added the last few years. Regarding the cleanliness, (parts of) the flats and public square have gotten better but that's only two small areas and is the extent of the cleanup. I drive past the steel yard every day for my commute and you can not have your windows down or let any outside air in all along 77 because the smell is so disgusting.
  - justin66 9y ago
    > I drive past the steel yard every day for my commute and you can not have your windows down or let any outside air in all along 77 because the smell is so disgusting. You might already know this but you're also driving past a wastewater treatment plant, and through a pretty sparsely populated area. It's not representative of the metropolitan area as a whole.
- hmmm___food 9y ago
  Id also have to disagree on the RTA bit. They're pretty well run here in Dayton.
brucepucci 9y ago
I've worked downtown for a few years and I really don't think your comments are entirely accurate. I don't want to turn this into a back and forth but by no means would I say that it is downtown is dirty (there are some less fortunate spots just outside of the city). I ride the light rail RTA to work every day from ~20 miles out and consistently get to work at about the time. I don't ride the buses so perhaps that is the issue. I would agree that there isn't a lot to do but characterizing all of downtown as a parking lot is a little rough. Progressive, Key, AmTrust, Sherwin-Willaims, Parker-Hannifin, Eton are all Fortune 500 and in the area and have nothing to do with the medical industry.
- __abc 9y ago
  I rode the light rail from east side to downtown every day for two years. It's dirty. West side to downtown may be another story.
  - aml183 9y ago
    I live in UC. I leave from the Little Italy stop. The train is extremely clean. Someone who has also lived in NYC. The trains are magnitudes cleaner in Cle than NYC.
    - __abc 9y ago
      Weird, that's the EXACT one I rode. Plus, the stairway up to the train stand that overlooked those contemporary condo's always smelled like piss 5+ years ago .... NOT CLEAN! Glad they have been cleaned up since.
      - justin66 9y ago
        Pretty sure that station has recently been rebuilt, the one at the foot of Cedar Hill certainly has. The last five years have seen a lot of new buses, as well, although I'm not sure how true that is once you get a little further away from the health-tech corridor and University Circle.
RealityNow 9y ago
That parking lot comment has to be one of the best characterizations of American downtown areas I've heard. Well said.
- overcast 9y ago
  I'd rather have parking than fighting to find it!
  - muninn_ 9y ago
    I'd rather people walked or biked instead....
  - afuchs 9y ago
    Parking has an opportunity cost. Parking takes up space and costs money to build, which could have been used for something else. There is always a balance between having parking and having an abundance of bars, restaurants, offices, and living spaces within any given area.
AcerbicZero 9y ago
I don't think I'd go so far as to say the whole city is "extremely dirty" but it did have some of the dirtiest mass transit I've ever seen. Cleveland seems to have all of the drawbacks of living in Columbus or Cincinnati without any of the benefits those cities provide, such as the much lower crime rate in both Cinci/Columbus and the more walkable neighborhoods/downtown area in Columbus.
- pwthornton 9y ago
  Columbus is a more fun city if you are young, but Cleveland's advantage is that its healthcare is much better than either and so are its cultural institutions. Cleveland has elite museums, a well-known orchestra and a several playhouses. And if you are into professional sports, it's obviously you're best choice (except if you like professional football). I don't know if I'd say that Cincinnati offers much over either one.
ben_jones 9y ago
I wonder how many people commit to moving to a city without actually knowing more then what their tourist board puts out.
- neuromantik8086 9y ago
  You mean like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysmLA5TqbIY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysmLA5TqbIY
chris_7 9y ago
Good (terrible?) before/after animation of a parking crater in Cleveland: http://usa.streetsblog.org/2013/03/05/seeking-submissions-the-worst-parking-crater-in-an-american-downtown/ http://usa.streetsblog.org/2013/03/05/seeking-submissions-th...
Bucephalus355 9y ago
The last sentence of this post perfectly describes Austin, Texas.
spelunker 9y ago
To be fair, the public transit he's moving from, RTD, isn't always great either. It just filed a fourth extension to get the automated crossings working on the new commuter train. Until then the crossings are being manned by flaggers. Honestly I just wanted to complain about RTD. I used to live in the midwest, it was nice. Cheap housing!

ahhhhhhhhhh 9y ago

I grew up in Springfield, MA — and I was seeing similar red flags reading his post about Cleveland. Springfield also has a very clean heart of downtown, but it's a total ghost town after 5pm and really only has one significantly sized employer (there are also museums and good places to eat in Springfield). "Clean" means nothing for a downtown area. Real estate is also very cheap because no one wants to live there (few jobs, violence) and people struggle to upkeep the very large houses from the times when Springfield was actually prosperous.

tcbawo 9y ago
Cleveland is by no means a large city, but the Metropolitan population is probably 4-5 times that of Springfield, MA. Also, Cleveland peaked in population 60+ years ago, so the housing stock is relatively old and cheap, and the cultural landmarks are outsized for a city it's size. Like Detroit, the suburbs were more prosperous than the city center, although there is massive resurgence happening downtown with breweries, restaurants, and art galleries popping up everywhere. There are many large, lofty buildings that are incredibly cheap (like Chicago's West Loop 30 years ago). Overall it seems like a turnaround story similar to Pittsburgh and Detroit.

cmdlinerambo 9y ago

I disagree about RTA comment. I take the 55 almost everyday and it is super clean. The city used to be dirty, but has been rejuvenated from public square to the east bank. It's really bike friendly as far as transportation goes as well.

lightbyte 9y ago
It is definitely more bike friendly than some cities, that's true. Plenty of bike lanes have been added the last few years. Regarding the cleanliness, (parts of) the flats and public square have gotten better but that's only two small areas and is the extent of the cleanup. I drive past the steel yard every day for my commute and you can not have your windows down or let any outside air in all along 77 because the smell is so disgusting.
- justin66 9y ago
  > I drive past the steel yard every day for my commute and you can not have your windows down or let any outside air in all along 77 because the smell is so disgusting. You might already know this but you're also driving past a wastewater treatment plant, and through a pretty sparsely populated area. It's not representative of the metropolitan area as a whole.
hmmm___food 9y ago
Id also have to disagree on the RTA bit. They're pretty well run here in Dayton.

brucepucci 9y ago

I've worked downtown for a few years and I really don't think your comments are entirely accurate. I don't want to turn this into a back and forth but by no means would I say that it is downtown is dirty (there are some less fortunate spots just outside of the city). I ride the light rail RTA to work every day from ~20 miles out and consistently get to work at about the time. I don't ride the buses so perhaps that is the issue. I would agree that there isn't a lot to do but characterizing all of downtown as a parking lot is a little rough. Progressive, Key, AmTrust, Sherwin-Willaims, Parker-Hannifin, Eton are all Fortune 500 and in the area and have nothing to do with the medical industry.

__abc 9y ago
I rode the light rail from east side to downtown every day for two years. It's dirty. West side to downtown may be another story.
- aml183 9y ago
  I live in UC. I leave from the Little Italy stop. The train is extremely clean. Someone who has also lived in NYC. The trains are magnitudes cleaner in Cle than NYC.
  - __abc 9y ago
    Weird, that's the EXACT one I rode. Plus, the stairway up to the train stand that overlooked those contemporary condo's always smelled like piss 5+ years ago .... NOT CLEAN! Glad they have been cleaned up since.
    - justin66 9y ago
      Pretty sure that station has recently been rebuilt, the one at the foot of Cedar Hill certainly has. The last five years have seen a lot of new buses, as well, although I'm not sure how true that is once you get a little further away from the health-tech corridor and University Circle.

RealityNow 9y ago

That parking lot comment has to be one of the best characterizations of American downtown areas I've heard. Well said.

overcast 9y ago
I'd rather have parking than fighting to find it!
- muninn_ 9y ago
  I'd rather people walked or biked instead....
- afuchs 9y ago
  Parking has an opportunity cost. Parking takes up space and costs money to build, which could have been used for something else. There is always a balance between having parking and having an abundance of bars, restaurants, offices, and living spaces within any given area.

AcerbicZero 9y ago

I don't think I'd go so far as to say the whole city is "extremely dirty" but it did have some of the dirtiest mass transit I've ever seen. Cleveland seems to have all of the drawbacks of living in Columbus or Cincinnati without any of the benefits those cities provide, such as the much lower crime rate in both Cinci/Columbus and the more walkable neighborhoods/downtown area in Columbus.

pwthornton 9y ago
Columbus is a more fun city if you are young, but Cleveland's advantage is that its healthcare is much better than either and so are its cultural institutions. Cleveland has elite museums, a well-known orchestra and a several playhouses. And if you are into professional sports, it's obviously you're best choice (except if you like professional football). I don't know if I'd say that Cincinnati offers much over either one.

ben_jones 9y ago

I wonder how many people commit to moving to a city without actually knowing more then what their tourist board puts out.

neuromantik8086 9y ago
You mean like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysmLA5TqbIY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysmLA5TqbIY

chris_7 9y ago

Good (terrible?) before/after animation of a parking crater in Cleveland: http://usa.streetsblog.org/2013/03/05/seeking-submissions-the-worst-parking-crater-in-an-american-downtown/ http://usa.streetsblog.org/2013/03/05/seeking-submissions-th...

Bucephalus355 9y ago

The last sentence of this post perfectly describes Austin, Texas.

spelunker 9y ago

To be fair, the public transit he's moving from, RTD, isn't always great either. It just filed a fourth extension to get the automated crossings working on the new commuter train. Until then the crossings are being manned by flaggers. Honestly I just wanted to complain about RTD. I used to live in the midwest, it was nice. Cheap housing!