9 ms·

Give me software updates for 7+ years, then we'll talk about buying your $700 phone. Lasting hardware means nothing without lasting software. In the meanwhile,

Give me software updates for 7+ years, then we'll talk about buying your $700 phone. Lasting hardware means nothing without lasting software. In the meanwhile, I'll keep buying $120 phones (Moto G4 with Amazon Ads FTW) and keeping them for ~2 years until they break or software updates stop. Even though as a Catholic (Laudato Si, Rerum Novarum) it kills me to waste all those materials every couple of years and be part of the environmental degradation of our planet.

throwaway613834 9y ago
I'm on Android 4 as I'm typing this and the only reason I'm even considering a new phone is that apps have gotten a bit more demanding of the CPU, i.e. my hardware is too slow for a handful of apps now. What do you find so critical about OS/OEM software updates that you find a need to buy a new phone every 1-2 years?
- zeograd 9y ago
  security ones...
  - throwaway613834 9y ago
    What kind of security updates actually worry you though? Not trying to sound snarky, but do you install sketchy apps regularly? What are examples of actual threats are you trying to protect against? If you install untrusted apps regularly I could see why, but if not then what attack vector are you worried about? Are you worried about a WiFi attack in a coffee shop for example?
    - JohnZi 9y ago
      E.g. there was a remote code execution vulnerability in dhcpcd that got fixed in April 2016. And we have QuadRooter, Dirty Cow, Stagefright and all the other fancy named Vulnerabilities.
    - r3bl 9y ago
      Not the person who you are replying to, but in my case, yes, connecting to a hostile WiFi and someone physically stealing my phone and having access to my entire life is exactly my fear. Also, being able to fine-tweak app permissions is a huge plus for getting Android 6+ phone. I've switched to Nexus 5x at the beginning of this month. Current price is around 250€, and I basically gained all the features of flagship models (fast charging, good camera, up to date software, security updates for a year from now etc). But, up until that point, I refused to install apps that I would be scared of what would happen if they were compromised (so, nothing business-related) and apps that are asking me permissions that I don't want to allow them (as an example, no Facebook app what so ever). Been that way ever since I became a smartphone user, which, because of my privacy fears and dissatisfaction with current market options didn't happen until like two years ago.
      - throwaway613834 9y ago
        Regarding hostile Wi-Fi: okay, so that means when such an exploit comes out, you can then decide to buy a new phone if your phone is still not receiving updates and if your phone is vulnerable. And I would expect most such exploits to be specific to the phone brand, not the Android/Linux kernel in general. Out of curiosity, do you know of any actual such exploits that remain unpatched in (say) late versions of Android 4? Regarding someone stealing your phone: I don't understand what this has to do with OS or hardware updates. You can put a PIN on your phone and encrypt it. Perfectly possible on older versions of Android. Regarding fine-tweaking app permissions: Privacy Guard and XPrivacy do the same thing. Why necessarily update the OS? And in any case, why constantly keep updating the OS past Android 6 where this feature was introduced?
    - pasta 9y ago
      An update of trusted certificate parties would be nice once in a while. Or fixes that close doors left open.
- dmoy 9y ago
  Security update for one. Idk about 1-2 years, but if it doesn't get security updates I'm not getting email/sms/etc on it
  - throwaway613834 9y ago
    But your email app will still get updates right? (I guess I'm using Gmail and assuming you are using something like it that gets updates too, but maybe I'm wrong.) Same with SMS - lots of apps that get updates. What's the exact issue?
    - JohnZi 9y ago
      Apps do get updates, but they aren't the issue. The system/kernel/system libraries don't get updates and if they are compromised all your apps are compromised too. If someone know a vulnerability only in a normal app he can't do anything but look at only this one app, with system access well he can do way more. (Also Android got some additional security/privacy features after Android 4)
      - throwaway613834 9y ago
        But the thing is, even if 100% of your apps are vulnerable, it doesn't mean anything unless the attacker can reach your phone somehow. That can only happen in 5 different ways: (1) Low-level Wi-Fi bug exploit, (2) SMS exploit, (3) Cellular exploit (like a Stingray), (4) Cellular internet connection (open ports, etc.), (5) App-level exploits. I don't know of any critical examples of #1 that I would need to protect against where upgrading is my only solution (maybe I'll upgrade if I find one). #2 can be mitigated at the app level (see my reply to the other comment here) and probably faster so than the update you'd receive. #3 can't really be mitigated by phone updates. #4 is impractical since cells are behind carrier-grade NATs and don't have dedicated IP addresses to be reachable via the internet. And #5 just involves updating the app, not the OS or hardware. If you can give me an example of an actual attack that cannot be prevented without upgrading the hardware or the OS, I would find that far more convincing than a hypothetical.
- ariofrio 9y ago
  Mostly, access to new apps and security updates. But you've got a point about newer apps becoming more demanding of the CPU. Ideally, this trend continues to slow down (Moore's law is essentially over) and software engineers start to find ways to do more with less. There's plenty of room to optimize most software out there, but historically very little incentive to do so. That's changing, or it should. In the meanwhile, an expensive long-lasting phone should make it possible to upgrade the CPU and/or GPU in a phone for a fraction of the price of the whole phone, so that the phone can be used at its full potential for its complete lifetime. A similar provision applies to batteries, which usually die after a couple of years and would need to be replaced once or twice during the lifetime. Frankly, I haven't been able to keep a phone long enough for the software to become obsolete because the hardware breaks after 1-2 years. So I want Essential to succeed. A long-lasting phone made with durable materials and with many years of guaranteed software updates is the product we need, if someone dares to make it.
mariushn 9y ago
What do you think about cheap chinese phones, with good hardware specs? eg http://www.elephonestore.com/elephone-p8-mini-octa-core-mobile-phone-black-64gb.html http://www.elephonestore.com/elephone-p8-mini-octa-core-mobi...
Pxtl 9y ago
Hah, catholic guilt and environmentalism work together so well. yeah, I feel bad for taking a similar lifetime on my phones - I wish there was a company with the kind of reputation for craftsmanship and long-term support that Apple has that would offer stock Google Android devices.
- ocdtrekkie 9y ago
  Wanting long term support and Google software are contradictory requests.
- on_and_off 9y ago
  I wish that Google could start supporting that. I am not that convinced that it is in their best interest though .. Last time I got saw numbers on this, non-geeks did not care at all about updates.
  - Pxtl 9y ago
    I know, but from an environmental perspective it would be nice to be confident that I could get a reasonable 4-year-life out of a new flagship phone, rather than going through rare earths and energy to make disposable 2-year phones.
    - on_and_off 9y ago
      It would. On the plus side Google has invested a ton of effort this year into making this possible. Project treble is a major platform change. OEMs need to get onboard though. I would love to see Google ship the Pixel 2 with a ten years support warranty.. that would show the way but I will believe it when it happens
werber 9y ago
I've had my current iPhone for three years and think it'll go for at least one or two more
- therealdrag0 9y ago
  I used an iPhone 5 for three years, but just replaced it this spring because the battery was worn down and the port was unreliable, and, mostly, I got tired of the newer OSes not performing very well :S. So I got a refurbished iPhone SE (300$) to replace it.
maherbeg 9y ago
I'm 90% sure this is because Qualcomm won't give out the source to various drivers. Instead you get a binary blob to deal with which makes the interface with other parts of the system untenable over time.
- remir 9y ago
  Google fixed that in Android O with Project Treble, but the Essential Phone won't ship with O unfortunately.
- zifnab06 9y ago
  You are (mostly) correct. Either qcom doesn't give you blob updates (sometimes) or they don't update vendor/qcom/proprietary for new releases (most of the time). Partially on qcom, partially on OEMs.
rl3 9y ago
>Lasting hardware means nothing without lasting software. The Nexus 6P is a perfect example of this: https://m.theregister.co.uk/2017/05/01/google_eol_for_nexus_phones/ https://m.theregister.co.uk/2017/05/01/google_eol_for_nexus_... I've had mine a year and a half, and it doesn't even feel close to struggling with things. Performance is great. Yet, it's going to be artificially deprived of the latest Android releases starting one month from now, and won't even receive security updates after September 2018. It's absurd.
- panopticon 9y ago
  Note that it's a "guaranteed" date. Considering Android O works with Nexus 6P devices, I don't see them arbitrarily pulling the rug out from under us quite yet. I also don't imagine that any O point release will stop support either, so we'll likely see the 6P updated through the life of O. That being said, three years seems like a ridiculously short "guaranteed support" lifetime... especially considering the iPhone 5 (released nearly 5 years ago) is losing support this year.
- Brakenshire 9y ago
  Lineage OS works very well with the 6P, incidentally.
  - magila 9y ago
    Lineage OS isn't a substitute for vendor support. Lineage is dependent on vendors for updated drivers and firmware blobs. So if there's a bug in the firmware, like the recent BCM43xx vulnerability, you are still SOL if the particular chip in your device is no longer supported by the vendor.
    - jacobush 9y ago
      True, but I could imagine a situation where Lineage could work arond a bug in firmware and protect from it.
- bitmapbrother 9y ago
  Well at least the 6P will get Android 8 and another year of security updates. Which is more than I can say for the rest of the Android phones not made by Google.
roryisok 9y ago
> Even though as a Catholic (Laudato Si, Rerum Novarum) it kills me to waste all those materials every couple of years and be part of the environmental degradation of our planet It's not your Catholicism that makes you feel bad for polluting, it's your humanity. If Pope Francis turned around and said there's no climate change and we should all have tyre bonfires for christmas, would you be on-board with that?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- iDemonix 9y ago
  This. I'm not a Catholic (or follower of any religion) but I also try not to be wasteful with anything from food packaging to technology recycling.
- organsnyder 9y ago
  Though you wouldn't know it from observing many Christians, environmental stewardship is a Biblical mandate. Of course, it is possible to have the same conclusion through non-faith means, but that doesn't preclude the ability of a person to derive their view—at least in part—from their religious faith. Also, despite the Catholic church's hierarchical structure, a large portion of the church does not blindly follow the Pope's every decree. 86 percent of catholics find birth control to be "morally acceptable", according to one survey ( https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/25/opinion/sunday/frank-bruni-pope-francis-birth-control-and-american-catholics.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/25/opinion/sunday/frank-brun... ).
  - roryisok 9y ago
    I was raised Catholic, in a Catholic country and I don't every recall being taught environment stewardship as being a biblical mandate. All that came from my parents, from common sense, from a love of nature and from 80s kids TV. I don't want to get caught up in a religious argument, but I think its far more likely that people attribute a particular view to their religious beliefs as a way of validating them than they believe the environment is precious solely because the bible told them.

throwaway613834 9y ago

I'm on Android 4 as I'm typing this and the only reason I'm even considering a new phone is that apps have gotten a bit more demanding of the CPU, i.e. my hardware is too slow for a handful of apps now. What do you find so critical about OS/OEM software updates that you find a need to buy a new phone every 1-2 years?

zeograd 9y ago
security ones...
- throwaway613834 9y ago
  What kind of security updates actually worry you though? Not trying to sound snarky, but do you install sketchy apps regularly? What are examples of actual threats are you trying to protect against? If you install untrusted apps regularly I could see why, but if not then what attack vector are you worried about? Are you worried about a WiFi attack in a coffee shop for example?
  - JohnZi 9y ago
    E.g. there was a remote code execution vulnerability in dhcpcd that got fixed in April 2016. And we have QuadRooter, Dirty Cow, Stagefright and all the other fancy named Vulnerabilities.
  - r3bl 9y ago
    Not the person who you are replying to, but in my case, yes, connecting to a hostile WiFi and someone physically stealing my phone and having access to my entire life is exactly my fear. Also, being able to fine-tweak app permissions is a huge plus for getting Android 6+ phone. I've switched to Nexus 5x at the beginning of this month. Current price is around 250€, and I basically gained all the features of flagship models (fast charging, good camera, up to date software, security updates for a year from now etc). But, up until that point, I refused to install apps that I would be scared of what would happen if they were compromised (so, nothing business-related) and apps that are asking me permissions that I don't want to allow them (as an example, no Facebook app what so ever). Been that way ever since I became a smartphone user, which, because of my privacy fears and dissatisfaction with current market options didn't happen until like two years ago.
    - throwaway613834 9y ago
      Regarding hostile Wi-Fi: okay, so that means when such an exploit comes out, you can then decide to buy a new phone if your phone is still not receiving updates and if your phone is vulnerable. And I would expect most such exploits to be specific to the phone brand, not the Android/Linux kernel in general. Out of curiosity, do you know of any actual such exploits that remain unpatched in (say) late versions of Android 4? Regarding someone stealing your phone: I don't understand what this has to do with OS or hardware updates. You can put a PIN on your phone and encrypt it. Perfectly possible on older versions of Android. Regarding fine-tweaking app permissions: Privacy Guard and XPrivacy do the same thing. Why necessarily update the OS? And in any case, why constantly keep updating the OS past Android 6 where this feature was introduced?
  - pasta 9y ago
    An update of trusted certificate parties would be nice once in a while. Or fixes that close doors left open.
dmoy 9y ago
Security update for one. Idk about 1-2 years, but if it doesn't get security updates I'm not getting email/sms/etc on it
- throwaway613834 9y ago
  But your email app will still get updates right? (I guess I'm using Gmail and assuming you are using something like it that gets updates too, but maybe I'm wrong.) Same with SMS - lots of apps that get updates. What's the exact issue?
  - JohnZi 9y ago
    Apps do get updates, but they aren't the issue. The system/kernel/system libraries don't get updates and if they are compromised all your apps are compromised too. If someone know a vulnerability only in a normal app he can't do anything but look at only this one app, with system access well he can do way more. (Also Android got some additional security/privacy features after Android 4)
    - throwaway613834 9y ago
      But the thing is, even if 100% of your apps are vulnerable, it doesn't mean anything unless the attacker can reach your phone somehow. That can only happen in 5 different ways: (1) Low-level Wi-Fi bug exploit, (2) SMS exploit, (3) Cellular exploit (like a Stingray), (4) Cellular internet connection (open ports, etc.), (5) App-level exploits. I don't know of any critical examples of #1 that I would need to protect against where upgrading is my only solution (maybe I'll upgrade if I find one). #2 can be mitigated at the app level (see my reply to the other comment here) and probably faster so than the update you'd receive. #3 can't really be mitigated by phone updates. #4 is impractical since cells are behind carrier-grade NATs and don't have dedicated IP addresses to be reachable via the internet. And #5 just involves updating the app, not the OS or hardware. If you can give me an example of an actual attack that cannot be prevented without upgrading the hardware or the OS, I would find that far more convincing than a hypothetical.
ariofrio 9y ago
Mostly, access to new apps and security updates. But you've got a point about newer apps becoming more demanding of the CPU. Ideally, this trend continues to slow down (Moore's law is essentially over) and software engineers start to find ways to do more with less. There's plenty of room to optimize most software out there, but historically very little incentive to do so. That's changing, or it should. In the meanwhile, an expensive long-lasting phone should make it possible to upgrade the CPU and/or GPU in a phone for a fraction of the price of the whole phone, so that the phone can be used at its full potential for its complete lifetime. A similar provision applies to batteries, which usually die after a couple of years and would need to be replaced once or twice during the lifetime. Frankly, I haven't been able to keep a phone long enough for the software to become obsolete because the hardware breaks after 1-2 years. So I want Essential to succeed. A long-lasting phone made with durable materials and with many years of guaranteed software updates is the product we need, if someone dares to make it.

mariushn 9y ago

What do you think about cheap chinese phones, with good hardware specs? eg http://www.elephonestore.com/elephone-p8-mini-octa-core-mobile-phone-black-64gb.html http://www.elephonestore.com/elephone-p8-mini-octa-core-mobi...

Pxtl 9y ago

Hah, catholic guilt and environmentalism work together so well. yeah, I feel bad for taking a similar lifetime on my phones - I wish there was a company with the kind of reputation for craftsmanship and long-term support that Apple has that would offer stock Google Android devices.

ocdtrekkie 9y ago
Wanting long term support and Google software are contradictory requests.
on_and_off 9y ago
I wish that Google could start supporting that. I am not that convinced that it is in their best interest though .. Last time I got saw numbers on this, non-geeks did not care at all about updates.
- Pxtl 9y ago
  I know, but from an environmental perspective it would be nice to be confident that I could get a reasonable 4-year-life out of a new flagship phone, rather than going through rare earths and energy to make disposable 2-year phones.
  - on_and_off 9y ago
    It would. On the plus side Google has invested a ton of effort this year into making this possible. Project treble is a major platform change. OEMs need to get onboard though. I would love to see Google ship the Pixel 2 with a ten years support warranty.. that would show the way but I will believe it when it happens

werber 9y ago

I've had my current iPhone for three years and think it'll go for at least one or two more

therealdrag0 9y ago
I used an iPhone 5 for three years, but just replaced it this spring because the battery was worn down and the port was unreliable, and, mostly, I got tired of the newer OSes not performing very well :S. So I got a refurbished iPhone SE (300$) to replace it.

maherbeg 9y ago

I'm 90% sure this is because Qualcomm won't give out the source to various drivers. Instead you get a binary blob to deal with which makes the interface with other parts of the system untenable over time.

remir 9y ago
Google fixed that in Android O with Project Treble, but the Essential Phone won't ship with O unfortunately.
zifnab06 9y ago
You are (mostly) correct. Either qcom doesn't give you blob updates (sometimes) or they don't update vendor/qcom/proprietary for new releases (most of the time). Partially on qcom, partially on OEMs.

rl3 9y ago

>Lasting hardware means nothing without lasting software. The Nexus 6P is a perfect example of this: https://m.theregister.co.uk/2017/05/01/google_eol_for_nexus_phones/ https://m.theregister.co.uk/2017/05/01/google_eol_for_nexus_... I've had mine a year and a half, and it doesn't even feel close to struggling with things. Performance is great. Yet, it's going to be artificially deprived of the latest Android releases starting one month from now, and won't even receive security updates after September 2018. It's absurd.

panopticon 9y ago
Note that it's a "guaranteed" date. Considering Android O works with Nexus 6P devices, I don't see them arbitrarily pulling the rug out from under us quite yet. I also don't imagine that any O point release will stop support either, so we'll likely see the 6P updated through the life of O. That being said, three years seems like a ridiculously short "guaranteed support" lifetime... especially considering the iPhone 5 (released nearly 5 years ago) is losing support this year.
Brakenshire 9y ago
Lineage OS works very well with the 6P, incidentally.
- magila 9y ago
  Lineage OS isn't a substitute for vendor support. Lineage is dependent on vendors for updated drivers and firmware blobs. So if there's a bug in the firmware, like the recent BCM43xx vulnerability, you are still SOL if the particular chip in your device is no longer supported by the vendor.
  - jacobush 9y ago
    True, but I could imagine a situation where Lineage could work arond a bug in firmware and protect from it.
bitmapbrother 9y ago
Well at least the 6P will get Android 8 and another year of security updates. Which is more than I can say for the rest of the Android phones not made by Google.

roryisok 9y ago

> Even though as a Catholic (Laudato Si, Rerum Novarum) it kills me to waste all those materials every couple of years and be part of the environmental degradation of our planet It's not your Catholicism that makes you feel bad for polluting, it's your humanity. If Pope Francis turned around and said there's no climate change and we should all have tyre bonfires for christmas, would you be on-board with that?

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
iDemonix 9y ago
This. I'm not a Catholic (or follower of any religion) but I also try not to be wasteful with anything from food packaging to technology recycling.
organsnyder 9y ago
Though you wouldn't know it from observing many Christians, environmental stewardship is a Biblical mandate. Of course, it is possible to have the same conclusion through non-faith means, but that doesn't preclude the ability of a person to derive their view—at least in part—from their religious faith. Also, despite the Catholic church's hierarchical structure, a large portion of the church does not blindly follow the Pope's every decree. 86 percent of catholics find birth control to be "morally acceptable", according to one survey ( https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/25/opinion/sunday/frank-bruni-pope-francis-birth-control-and-american-catholics.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/25/opinion/sunday/frank-brun... ).
- roryisok 9y ago
  I was raised Catholic, in a Catholic country and I don't every recall being taught environment stewardship as being a biblical mandate. All that came from my parents, from common sense, from a love of nature and from 80s kids TV. I don't want to get caught up in a religious argument, but I think its far more likely that people attribute a particular view to their religious beliefs as a way of validating them than they believe the environment is precious solely because the bible told them.