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At the same time, aren't "you as the white supremacist" working to ruin the lives of hundreds, if not thousands of strangers?

ethbro 9y ago
Good point! So maybe the moral calculus comes from a weighing of both sides ultimately effected. It certainly seems more just when looked at that way vs random meme person the internet fixates on.
- s73ver_ 9y ago
  To be perfectly honest, I tend not to think of it too much because of that. I'm not going to partake in mass doxxing efforts, but I'm also not going to be upset when these people are shunned, or companies choose not to do business with them. There may be some ethics/morality questions that can be raised, but I believe those are more effectively raised when one of the sides isn't openly advocating for the things White Supremacists are advocating for. I don't really believe in the slippery slope argument being presented; if these things happen to a group with more moral nuance, the discussion can still happen then.
  - ethbro 9y ago
    > if these things happen to a group with more moral nuance It's the "more moral nuance" criteria that terrifies me though. Because that's ultimately a proxy for "I feel good / bad about this group". If rules as usual are suspended for dealing with a group, I'm not going to rest it on "Yeah, but they're bad... right?" Advocating systematic oppression is a concrete reason. But what degree rises to forfeiting normal rights? Does the local judge who's pretty racist qualify?
    - s73ver_ 9y ago
      I think you're overthinking the extent of things. Nobody is saying these people should be shot on site, for instance. But I'm not going to lose any sleep if they're shunned by society. As long as government is not imposing anything, I'm ok with businesses not wanting to be associated with them. Also, if you're going, "Yeah, but they're bad... right?" That implies that maybe there is nuance. I would argue that nuance is not present with Nazis.
      - ethbro 9y ago
        Agreed on the former. On the later, it's the why the nuance isn't presence in Nazis that I want a firmer grip on. Nazis presumably don't wake up, get out of bed, and say "I'm going to be evil today." They have a set of racist beliefs and they pursue them. But lots of other people have racist beliefs too. Local judges, in all probability our current Attorney General, inner city police, etc. So what makes Nazis different from them? HelloMcFly's "actively and publicly working towards the oppression of others" seems like a decent standard. I'd just prefer to have some framework that doesn't justify itself with "Nazis are bad because they're Nazis" (which is what my phrasing above was getting at). Essentially, the trotting out child pornographers (who nobody wants to defend) to try and enact free speech restriction (which people would otherwise want to defend).
        s73ver_ 9y ago
        "On the later, it's the why the nuance isn't presence in Nazis that I want a firmer grip on." Read about WWII. Read about what these people actually believe. Generally, people aren't willing to give nuance to a group that actively calls for genocide. "Nazis presumably don't wake up, get out of bed, and say "I'm going to be evil today." They have a set of racist beliefs and they pursue them." Yes, they do. Because their set of beliefs is inherently evil and violent. "But lots of other people have racist beliefs too. Local judges, in all probability our current Attorney General, inner city police, etc. So what makes Nazis different from them?" I don't know, and I honestly don't care. "I'd just prefer to have some framework that doesn't justify itself with "Nazis are bad because they're Nazis" (which is what my phrasing above was getting at). Essentially, the trotting out child pornographers (who nobody wants to defend) to try and enact free speech restriction (which people would otherwise want to defend)." I mean, you do you. But again, Nazis are bad because they are Nazis. There is no such thing as a good Nazi. They are working to do harm to others.
        ethbro 9y ago
        (Fwiw, one of my hobbies is reading military history) And yeowch. Is it not apparent that your line of reasoning just as easily leads to "Jews are evil" if that happens to be the prevailing sentiment / news / way you were raised?

ethbro 9y ago

Good point! So maybe the moral calculus comes from a weighing of both sides ultimately effected. It certainly seems more just when looked at that way vs random meme person the internet fixates on.

s73ver_ 9y ago
To be perfectly honest, I tend not to think of it too much because of that. I'm not going to partake in mass doxxing efforts, but I'm also not going to be upset when these people are shunned, or companies choose not to do business with them. There may be some ethics/morality questions that can be raised, but I believe those are more effectively raised when one of the sides isn't openly advocating for the things White Supremacists are advocating for. I don't really believe in the slippery slope argument being presented; if these things happen to a group with more moral nuance, the discussion can still happen then.
- ethbro 9y ago
  > if these things happen to a group with more moral nuance It's the "more moral nuance" criteria that terrifies me though. Because that's ultimately a proxy for "I feel good / bad about this group". If rules as usual are suspended for dealing with a group, I'm not going to rest it on "Yeah, but they're bad... right?" Advocating systematic oppression is a concrete reason. But what degree rises to forfeiting normal rights? Does the local judge who's pretty racist qualify?
  - s73ver_ 9y ago
    I think you're overthinking the extent of things. Nobody is saying these people should be shot on site, for instance. But I'm not going to lose any sleep if they're shunned by society. As long as government is not imposing anything, I'm ok with businesses not wanting to be associated with them. Also, if you're going, "Yeah, but they're bad... right?" That implies that maybe there is nuance. I would argue that nuance is not present with Nazis.
    - ethbro 9y ago
      Agreed on the former. On the later, it's the why the nuance isn't presence in Nazis that I want a firmer grip on. Nazis presumably don't wake up, get out of bed, and say "I'm going to be evil today." They have a set of racist beliefs and they pursue them. But lots of other people have racist beliefs too. Local judges, in all probability our current Attorney General, inner city police, etc. So what makes Nazis different from them? HelloMcFly's "actively and publicly working towards the oppression of others" seems like a decent standard. I'd just prefer to have some framework that doesn't justify itself with "Nazis are bad because they're Nazis" (which is what my phrasing above was getting at). Essentially, the trotting out child pornographers (who nobody wants to defend) to try and enact free speech restriction (which people would otherwise want to defend).
      - s73ver_ 9y ago
        "On the later, it's the why the nuance isn't presence in Nazis that I want a firmer grip on." Read about WWII. Read about what these people actually believe. Generally, people aren't willing to give nuance to a group that actively calls for genocide. "Nazis presumably don't wake up, get out of bed, and say "I'm going to be evil today." They have a set of racist beliefs and they pursue them." Yes, they do. Because their set of beliefs is inherently evil and violent. "But lots of other people have racist beliefs too. Local judges, in all probability our current Attorney General, inner city police, etc. So what makes Nazis different from them?" I don't know, and I honestly don't care. "I'd just prefer to have some framework that doesn't justify itself with "Nazis are bad because they're Nazis" (which is what my phrasing above was getting at). Essentially, the trotting out child pornographers (who nobody wants to defend) to try and enact free speech restriction (which people would otherwise want to defend)." I mean, you do you. But again, Nazis are bad because they are Nazis. There is no such thing as a good Nazi. They are working to do harm to others.
        ethbro 9y ago
        (Fwiw, one of my hobbies is reading military history) And yeowch. Is it not apparent that your line of reasoning just as easily leads to "Jews are evil" if that happens to be the prevailing sentiment / news / way you were raised?