2 ms·

This is a very important point and I agree, but the question posed by the article is why was there a sudden decline in women in CS. Before 1984 they were well r

by rpiguy 9y ago

This is a very important point and I agree, but the question posed by the article is why was there a sudden decline in women in CS. Before 1984 they were well represented and enrollment literally crashed to levels lower than they were 15 years before. We can't say systemic sexism caused the crash in enrollment, which happened very suddenly. It is certainly a factor, and probably a bigger factor over time explaining sustained low enrollment. A snap drop in enrollment is more likely due to a shift in the culture somewhere. Someone pointed out that the game market crashed the year prior, that was probably a factor. Was it Reagan? Was it the number of high profile movies in which nerds were stereotyped? It is hard to say and a very interesting question.

tyingq 9y ago
I think the boom in sales of home computers could be an explanation. See: https://cdn.arstechnica.net/articles/culture/total-share.media/graph2-1.jpg https://cdn.arstechnica.net/articles/culture/total-share.med... Prior to anyone having a computer, your suitability for getting in CS would be the math classes you took, which had some "equality of access". Once the sales boom happened, anyone with a computer probably had a large advantage to anyone that did not. If that was the driver, though, it would imply some pattern where these computers were less available, or less appealing, to young women.
- rpiguy 9y ago
  I think that is an excellent hypothesis!
- ghaff 9y ago
  That's sort of the argument she's arguing against. Which is that, starting with home computers, guys were more inclined to adopt them as a hobby thing well pre-college. And, once that happened, if you arrived as a freshman and had never really touched a computer (and at one point that was probably literally true for many) it's challenging to go into CS if your classmates have been playing with this stuff for years. I don't know. Her examples are unconvincing. That they maybe advertised to girls more could just as easily mean, the boys are already buying them so let's focus on the untapped market. The common theory around early exposure seems plausible to me. [ADDED: Together with the fact that it's supposed to be this all consuming thing.] I've read equally well-written articles by woman nodding their heads. https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-08-09/as-a-woman-in-tech-i-realized-these-are-not-my-people https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-08-09/as-a-woma... Unis could deal with it to a degree with intro to computing everything but CS has emerged as an almost unique major (music is certainly another) where showing up at college saying you want to try this computer thing is considered odd. No one expects a chemical engineer to have done much more than really enjoyed their high school chemistry class. EDIT for clarity: Demonstrated "passion" for chemistry isn't really a pre-req.
didgeoridoo 9y ago
My uneducated guess on this is that the early 1980s is when computing went from an academic and intellectual pursuit to something where you could make giant piles of money. If (for various social and possibly psychological/biological reasons) men have a higher tendency to flood into highly-remunerated fields regardless of underlying interest/capability, you might see participation looking something like: 1970s: 20,000 "nerds" with equal gender distribution M: 10,000 (50%) W: 10,000 (50%) 1990s: 200,000 "nerds" with equal gender distribution + 800,000 men primarily focused on money M: 900,000 (90%) W: 100,000 (10%) Edit: this theory doesn't deny the argument that CS as a field became particularly uninviting to women over this time period as well, but the causality goes: men enter field for the $ => increasingly skewed gender ratio => male-centric culture develops => even women "nerds" stop joining because environment has become unfamiliar at best and hostile at worst

by rpiguy 9y ago

tyingq 9y ago

I think the boom in sales of home computers could be an explanation. See: https://cdn.arstechnica.net/articles/culture/total-share.media/graph2-1.jpg https://cdn.arstechnica.net/articles/culture/total-share.med... Prior to anyone having a computer, your suitability for getting in CS would be the math classes you took, which had some "equality of access". Once the sales boom happened, anyone with a computer probably had a large advantage to anyone that did not. If that was the driver, though, it would imply some pattern where these computers were less available, or less appealing, to young women.

rpiguy 9y ago
I think that is an excellent hypothesis!
ghaff 9y ago
That's sort of the argument she's arguing against. Which is that, starting with home computers, guys were more inclined to adopt them as a hobby thing well pre-college. And, once that happened, if you arrived as a freshman and had never really touched a computer (and at one point that was probably literally true for many) it's challenging to go into CS if your classmates have been playing with this stuff for years. I don't know. Her examples are unconvincing. That they maybe advertised to girls more could just as easily mean, the boys are already buying them so let's focus on the untapped market. The common theory around early exposure seems plausible to me. [ADDED: Together with the fact that it's supposed to be this all consuming thing.] I've read equally well-written articles by woman nodding their heads. https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-08-09/as-a-woman-in-tech-i-realized-these-are-not-my-people https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-08-09/as-a-woma... Unis could deal with it to a degree with intro to computing everything but CS has emerged as an almost unique major (music is certainly another) where showing up at college saying you want to try this computer thing is considered odd. No one expects a chemical engineer to have done much more than really enjoyed their high school chemistry class. EDIT for clarity: Demonstrated "passion" for chemistry isn't really a pre-req.

didgeoridoo 9y ago

My uneducated guess on this is that the early 1980s is when computing went from an academic and intellectual pursuit to something where you could make giant piles of money. If (for various social and possibly psychological/biological reasons) men have a higher tendency to flood into highly-remunerated fields regardless of underlying interest/capability, you might see participation looking something like: 1970s: 20,000 "nerds" with equal gender distribution M: 10,000 (50%) W: 10,000 (50%) 1990s: 200,000 "nerds" with equal gender distribution + 800,000 men primarily focused on money M: 900,000 (90%) W: 100,000 (10%) Edit: this theory doesn't deny the argument that CS as a field became particularly uninviting to women over this time period as well, but the causality goes: men enter field for the $ => increasingly skewed gender ratio => male-centric culture develops => even women "nerds" stop joining because environment has become unfamiliar at best and hostile at worst