5 ms·

"The plastic counterweight (right) could save around 45,000 tonnes of CO2 each year in the UK..." How about we just make machines that last instead of having t

"The plastic counterweight (right) could save around 45,000 tonnes of CO2 each year in the UK..." How about we just make machines that last instead of having to be replaced all the time.

rsynnott 9y ago
Because no-one wants to pay for that. Washing machines which last exist, but they're expensive. They use sturdier, more easily replaceable parts, higher quality motors and control systems, etc. And sometimes _iron_ counterweights (even more CO2 there). You can get a washing machine that might last perhaps 5-10 years for about 200-300 euro... or a Miele one that'll probably last over 20 years for 1000 euro. It's a hard sell for most people.
- Mister_Snuggles 9y ago
  > You can get a washing machine that might last perhaps 5-10 years for about 200-300 euro... or a Miele one that'll probably last over 20 years for 1000 euro. It's a hard sell for most people. The other side of the coin is that the Miele will possibly do a better job than the cheaper model. I used to buy $100 vacuum cleaners and just replace them when they break, which they usually did after a year or two. The last time one died on me I decided that I had had enough and bought a Miele. Not only will it last longer (the 10 year warranty guarantees that it will), it also does a much better job.
  - rsynnott 9y ago
    Oh, yep, it'll do a better job than the cheap stuff. Most people just aren't willing to spend this sort of money on an appliance, though.
  - jjeaff 9y ago
    I like my Miele vacuum. But I bought it because it did a noticeably better job and was more quite than a cheapo. But I doubt the Miele dishwasher would do a better job since mine does fine. Clean is clean for a plate.
- switch007 9y ago
  My problem is that I'm willing to spend the money but I'm worried about getting burnt. It can be difficult to ascertain what product is worth spending money on and how much extra to spend exactly. There is zero guarantee of spending more to get higher quality and longer life. It takes a lot of research. You need to be really, really determined to follow the "Buy It For Life" way.
  - otterley 9y ago
    The length of a manufacturer warranty is a pretty good indicator of relative expected product longevity.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
    Ask a repaid shop! Of course, they're unlikely to know how well an all new model will last, but most manufacturers don't have all new components in a new model. I bought my current machine secondhand for AU$200. When it fails beyond repair I plan on buying another on from a repairer, so I'll have the opportunity to ask them what parts commonly fail that make machines unrepairable.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
      repair shop
  - KGIII 9y ago
    A bit less than ten years ago, I had my home built and purchased nothing but high-end industrial appliances. I admit, this was costly and I made similar viewpoint purchases for the rest of the house. So far, I've not had to have anything repaired - at all. I haven't even had to change an appliance lightbulb. I just keep the consumables replaced on schedule. Initially, it was quite expensive. I do think it may be cheaper on the long run.
    - jjeaff 9y ago
      Do cheap appliances really have longevity problems though? My place is going on 22 years old with the same gas oven/stove top, built in microwave, and standing washer dryer combo. No repairs needed that I know of and even if they did, they are all standard, whirlpool type appliance with an abundance of cheap parts online. Even the fridge was going strong until we had an internal water leak a few years ago which was easily fixed for $100. We did recently get rid of it for a more efficient model though. Now that I think about it, the dishwasher was replaced a few years ago. Mostly because we didn't think the old one was cleaning well enough. But the new one was barely $200 all in. Commerical, high end versions of these appliances would need to last more than my remaining lifespan to pay for themselves. I don't think much financial argument can be made for spending large amounts of money on regular kitchen appliances for their longevity.
- petra 9y ago
  1000 euros per 20 years = 50 euro per year. 250 euros per ~7.5 years = 33 euros per year. See the problem ? But also improving the reliability of washing machines isn't hard or expensive. Remember, you're talking about a machine that the most common source of problem with it is a broken/faulty lid switch. cheap and easy to fix. Surely, with that level of engineered failure(or maybe extreme cost engineering), there's similar stuff hidden there.
  - semi-extrinsic 9y ago
    Also a common fault is the bearings supporting the drum. These actually take a lot of beating. In the olden days, you could replace them for $15 and two hours of straight-forward work. When my ~ 5 year old Bosch failed last year, I spent an hour on the teardown just to discover they now plastic weld the drum shut, so you instead have to buy a new $150 drum assembly. Youtube had teardowns of the same model built a few years earlier, which was still repairable; there were even still bolt holes right next to the plastic weld on mine. At which point I said screw you Bosch, I'm buying a new Miele. Here's hoping it lasts 20 years.
    - rsynnott 9y ago
      Huh, I thought Bosch still had replaceable bearings. That's disappointing.
  - rsynnott 9y ago
    I've never been convinced about the idea of serious engineered failure for this type of device. I think there are two problems, both consumer-related; price sensitivity (adjusted for inflation, these machines are far cheaper than they used to be) and demand for features (more modes, smartphone integration, bigger drum, higher spin speed), and something has to give. If you compare a low-end washing machine, say a Whirlpool or Inndesit or something, to a mid-range one (Bosch etc), to a high-end one (Miele), it's immediately obvious what's going on. On the low-end one, costs are cut to the bone; everything feels flimsy. The door, the drum, even the buttons feel cheap and flimsy. The mid-range one, things feel better (and repairs become easier; easily replaceable drums etc). The top-end one feels like an industrial machine (and durability improves; high-quality motors, the afore-mentioned iron counterweight and so on). To a large extent, with washing machines, you get what you pay for (as long as you avoid smartphone integration and other nonsense). There's consumer demand for really, really cheap ones, so manufacturers make them, and they break quickly. You can still buy a top-end one which will last, but it'll cost you.
- seanp2k2 9y ago
  There are also two schools of thought on spending more now vs spending twice. $1k now or $200 4-5 times obey the same course of time misses the opportunity cost -- pay $200 now then put the $800 into index funds. This also assumes that the $200 machine works as well as the $1k machine, which is very likely false. If it's rougher on your clothes and you must replace them more often, there's another hidden cost. If it's loud and keeps you up at night, it's harder to assign a dollar value to that. If you just hate using junky crap, again that's hard to assign a number to.
thinkcontext 9y ago
Why not both? They aren't mutually exclusive.
dx034 9y ago
You also have to transport a machine if you move with furniture. Washing machines to me still appear to be one of the longest lasting appliances, I'd guess most replace the machine not because it's faulty.

"The plastic counterweight (right) could save around 45,000 tonnes of CO2 each year in the UK..." How about we just make machines that last instead of having to be replaced all the time.

rsynnott 9y ago

Because no-one wants to pay for that. Washing machines which last exist, but they're expensive. They use sturdier, more easily replaceable parts, higher quality motors and control systems, etc. And sometimes _iron_ counterweights (even more CO2 there). You can get a washing machine that might last perhaps 5-10 years for about 200-300 euro... or a Miele one that'll probably last over 20 years for 1000 euro. It's a hard sell for most people.

Mister_Snuggles 9y ago
> You can get a washing machine that might last perhaps 5-10 years for about 200-300 euro... or a Miele one that'll probably last over 20 years for 1000 euro. It's a hard sell for most people. The other side of the coin is that the Miele will possibly do a better job than the cheaper model. I used to buy $100 vacuum cleaners and just replace them when they break, which they usually did after a year or two. The last time one died on me I decided that I had had enough and bought a Miele. Not only will it last longer (the 10 year warranty guarantees that it will), it also does a much better job.
- rsynnott 9y ago
  Oh, yep, it'll do a better job than the cheap stuff. Most people just aren't willing to spend this sort of money on an appliance, though.
- jjeaff 9y ago
  I like my Miele vacuum. But I bought it because it did a noticeably better job and was more quite than a cheapo. But I doubt the Miele dishwasher would do a better job since mine does fine. Clean is clean for a plate.
switch007 9y ago
My problem is that I'm willing to spend the money but I'm worried about getting burnt. It can be difficult to ascertain what product is worth spending money on and how much extra to spend exactly. There is zero guarantee of spending more to get higher quality and longer life. It takes a lot of research. You need to be really, really determined to follow the "Buy It For Life" way.
- otterley 9y ago
  The length of a manufacturer warranty is a pretty good indicator of relative expected product longevity.
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
  Ask a repaid shop! Of course, they're unlikely to know how well an all new model will last, but most manufacturers don't have all new components in a new model. I bought my current machine secondhand for AU$200. When it fails beyond repair I plan on buying another on from a repairer, so I'll have the opportunity to ask them what parts commonly fail that make machines unrepairable.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
    repair shop
- KGIII 9y ago
  A bit less than ten years ago, I had my home built and purchased nothing but high-end industrial appliances. I admit, this was costly and I made similar viewpoint purchases for the rest of the house. So far, I've not had to have anything repaired - at all. I haven't even had to change an appliance lightbulb. I just keep the consumables replaced on schedule. Initially, it was quite expensive. I do think it may be cheaper on the long run.
  - jjeaff 9y ago
    Do cheap appliances really have longevity problems though? My place is going on 22 years old with the same gas oven/stove top, built in microwave, and standing washer dryer combo. No repairs needed that I know of and even if they did, they are all standard, whirlpool type appliance with an abundance of cheap parts online. Even the fridge was going strong until we had an internal water leak a few years ago which was easily fixed for $100. We did recently get rid of it for a more efficient model though. Now that I think about it, the dishwasher was replaced a few years ago. Mostly because we didn't think the old one was cleaning well enough. But the new one was barely $200 all in. Commerical, high end versions of these appliances would need to last more than my remaining lifespan to pay for themselves. I don't think much financial argument can be made for spending large amounts of money on regular kitchen appliances for their longevity.
petra 9y ago
1000 euros per 20 years = 50 euro per year. 250 euros per ~7.5 years = 33 euros per year. See the problem ? But also improving the reliability of washing machines isn't hard or expensive. Remember, you're talking about a machine that the most common source of problem with it is a broken/faulty lid switch. cheap and easy to fix. Surely, with that level of engineered failure(or maybe extreme cost engineering), there's similar stuff hidden there.
- semi-extrinsic 9y ago
  Also a common fault is the bearings supporting the drum. These actually take a lot of beating. In the olden days, you could replace them for $15 and two hours of straight-forward work. When my ~ 5 year old Bosch failed last year, I spent an hour on the teardown just to discover they now plastic weld the drum shut, so you instead have to buy a new $150 drum assembly. Youtube had teardowns of the same model built a few years earlier, which was still repairable; there were even still bolt holes right next to the plastic weld on mine. At which point I said screw you Bosch, I'm buying a new Miele. Here's hoping it lasts 20 years.
  - rsynnott 9y ago
    Huh, I thought Bosch still had replaceable bearings. That's disappointing.
- rsynnott 9y ago
  I've never been convinced about the idea of serious engineered failure for this type of device. I think there are two problems, both consumer-related; price sensitivity (adjusted for inflation, these machines are far cheaper than they used to be) and demand for features (more modes, smartphone integration, bigger drum, higher spin speed), and something has to give. If you compare a low-end washing machine, say a Whirlpool or Inndesit or something, to a mid-range one (Bosch etc), to a high-end one (Miele), it's immediately obvious what's going on. On the low-end one, costs are cut to the bone; everything feels flimsy. The door, the drum, even the buttons feel cheap and flimsy. The mid-range one, things feel better (and repairs become easier; easily replaceable drums etc). The top-end one feels like an industrial machine (and durability improves; high-quality motors, the afore-mentioned iron counterweight and so on). To a large extent, with washing machines, you get what you pay for (as long as you avoid smartphone integration and other nonsense). There's consumer demand for really, really cheap ones, so manufacturers make them, and they break quickly. You can still buy a top-end one which will last, but it'll cost you.
seanp2k2 9y ago
There are also two schools of thought on spending more now vs spending twice. $1k now or $200 4-5 times obey the same course of time misses the opportunity cost -- pay $200 now then put the $800 into index funds. This also assumes that the $200 machine works as well as the $1k machine, which is very likely false. If it's rougher on your clothes and you must replace them more often, there's another hidden cost. If it's loud and keeps you up at night, it's harder to assign a dollar value to that. If you just hate using junky crap, again that's hard to assign a number to.

thinkcontext 9y ago

Why not both? They aren't mutually exclusive.

dx034 9y ago

You also have to transport a machine if you move with furniture. Washing machines to me still appear to be one of the longest lasting appliances, I'd guess most replace the machine not because it's faulty.