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It's really horrendous what is going on in Thailand with the military dictatorship using the lese majeste laws to suppress any dissent. Many, many people are se

It's really horrendous what is going on in Thailand with the military dictatorship using the lese majeste laws to suppress any dissent. Many, many people are serving long prison terms for it. Even insulting the king's dog can draw a long sentence[1]. Don't expect the US to even condemn this stuff, much less take any action against the country. Thailand's military is too cooperative in helping the US do dirty business, like hosting the black site[2] at which current CIA Deputy Director Gina Haspel[3] oversaw the torture of terrorism suspects. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/15/thai-man-faces-jail-insulting-kings-dog-sarcastic-internet-post https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/15/thai-man-faces... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/03/cia-deputy-director-gina-haspel-linked-torture-thailand-black-site https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/03/cia-deputy-d... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gina_Haspel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gina_Haspel

deleted 9y ago
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briandear 9y ago
WHat would the US be expected to do? If they try to “help,” they get criticized for being imperialists, if they don’t help, it’s because of a CIA conspiracy. Should the U.S. get involved more with Turkey? How about sanctioning Mexico for journalists being killed? Perhaps they should sanction Germany for arresting someone for exercising free speech (despite it being against German law.) Maybe Pakistan for tolerating revenge rapes order by local councils. There is a lot of nastiness in the world, yet for the U.S. it’s damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Why doesn’t Europe do something about Thailand if we are suggesting that a foreign power should “do” something?
- DanBC 9y ago
  > Why doesn’t Europe do something We've started doing something: https://eeas.europa.eu/headquarters/headquarters-homepage/12558/-statement-by-the-hrvp-spokesperson-on-the-constitutional-referendum-in-thailand_en https://eeas.europa.eu/headquarters/headquarters-homepage/12...
- geomark 9y ago
  Generally I agree. But that doesn't mean the US gov should be friendly with a military dictator, ala Trump's invitation for Thailand's military dictator Prayuth to visit[1]. Although arms sales to Thailand were initially put on hold after the coup it seems they are back on[2]. And Thailand's human rights abuses are not limited to free speech imprisonment. Human trafficking and slavery in the fishing and shrimp farming industry continues unabated while western markets continue purchasing the slave-produced products[3]. There are more than enough reasons to apply sanctions to the regime but, as I said, it's just too cooperative with US spooks to risk losing. [1]https://www.voanews.com/a/thai-prime-minister-accepts-trump-invitation-visit-us/3832619.html https://www.voanews.com/a/thai-prime-minister-accepts-trump-... [2]http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-thailand-idUSKBN19K193 http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-thailand-idUSKBN19K193 [3]https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/mar/30/thailand-failing-to-stamp-out-murder-slavery-fishing-industry-starvation-forced-labour-trafficking https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/mar/30/t...
  - bbarn 9y ago
    I'd be interested to know what end products these fish go to from point 3.
    - geomark 9y ago
      Investigative journalists publish reports every year or so. You can probably find more recent ones, but here's one from three years ago[1]. Many of the big supermarket chains are the end points for the slave-produced seafood products, Walmart, Carrefour, Costco, Tesco and some others. I think last year a couple of them threatened to stop buying from Thai suppliers, not sure if they made good on it. [1]https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2014/jun/10/supermarket-prawns-thailand-produced-slave-labour https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2014/jun/10/s...
- jessaustin 9y ago
  How about sanctioning Mexico for journalists being killed? Sanctions are only ever used as excuses for war. If USA actually gave a shit about Mexico we would cease the evil drug prohibition that creates and enriches gangsters who kill journalists. Don't hold your breath!
- sjcsjc 9y ago
  "for the U.S. it’s damned if you do, damned if you don’t." They're not damned if they don't. They're damned by their inconsistency. And that inconsistency makes it very easy for people to jump to the conclusion that principles are merely used as an excuse to pursue an unrelated agenda, all the while holding themselves forth as the righteous facing up to "evil-doers".
  - afarrell 9y ago
    I was about to say that the only principle we have the resources to enforce consistently is neutrality, but that ship sailed long ago--far before we decided to cut the Japanese off from oil and scrap metal.
- TorKlingberg 9y ago
  Nobody wants the U.S. to go invade Thailand. American and other strong countries has a lot of soft power. People on the internet love to make fun of the "strongly worded letter", but that is how diplomacy and influence is done. It's certainly better than the false binary choice between doing nothing and starting a war.
drzaiusapelord 9y ago
>Don't expect the US to even condemn this stuff, much less take any action against the country. Uh we have a dictator wanna-be in office who has invited and praised more than a few bloodthirsty dictators since taking office. What exactly do you expect us to do here? Even with a different president, anything short of CIA or military action won't change life on the ground in Thailand. How many CIA and US military interventions do you applaud exactly? We overthrew Saddam and it cost the Iraqi people nearly 350,000 lives. That's the entire population of Iceland! The US/EU/NATO/UN should draw a red line with ethnic cleansing, genocide, chemical and nuclear weapons, etc but everyday jailing of dissidents in Asia? We'd be in a dozen wars if we tried to police that and sternly written letters don't get results. Be aware that Amnesty International claims 500,000 people are currently enduring punitive detention without charge or trial in China. This stuff is more or less the norm in Asian countries where Western-style governments never developed. American troops, State Dept, and CIA resources have better things to do than try to fix the unfixable in Asia.
Cyph0n 9y ago
Thailand is not a special case: the Gulf countries are exactly the same in this regard. For example, the UAE operates a dozen or so prisons in Yemen where it performs interrogations on "suspected" terrorists and provides intel to US intelligence agencies. Also, the prison sentence given to this activist is nothing compared to what is thrown around in the Gulf for similar "crimes".
- novaleaf 9y ago
  agreed, and unfortunately, having lived, worked, and hired in Thailand for many years, I'm not so certain that western style democracy is the way to go in the country. I'm not saying that the situation outlined in the article is "OK", just that there are many geo-political differences that many westerners are not aware of. An analogy I like to use is that Democracy is like giving money to someone in need. Some will use it wisely, some will not.
  - geomark 9y ago
    One of the things that still seems strange to me after living in Thailand many years is that life under a military dictatorship is so much better than in a "democracy" (evil quotes because the US doesn't seem like a real democracy to me). At least as long as you aren't someone the government decides to target for saying something they don't like. A western style democracy would probably be worse for the majority of people in Thailand. None of that changes the fact that the brutal oppression of free speech (15 years in prison for saying something considered disparaging to the monarchy is pretty brutal) should be rebuked harshly by any country that holds free speech as an important value.
    - Cyph0n 9y ago
      > life under a military dictatorship is so much better than in a "democracy" I'm replying to both you and the parent since you both seem to support this stance. You are in no position to decide what is better for a group of people. Further, until the Thai experience democracy, neither you or anyone else actually knows how it will turn out. Perhaps most people you deal with hide their true beliefs about life under a monarchy. The opposite may also be true: people may really end up preferring autocracy! But until they are given a chance to try living in e.g. a proper constitutional monarchy, you simply cannot state such things with any certainty. > At least as long as you aren't someone the government decides to target for saying something they don't like. Remember, the government's opinion changes over time based on its interests. You might wake up one day to find that something you believe to be right contradicts directly with what the government thinks. Here's a simple, recent example I lived through back in 2011. The UAE government was not very supportive of the Arab Spring, but you were fine as long as you didn't protest or call for a change in the status quo. Pretty fair, given that you are living under a monarchy. But the UAE decided to back a military coup in 2013 which ousted the Muslim Brotherhood and reverted Egypt back to an autocracy. With this move, the UAE outlawed any criticism or questioning of either the UAE's position or Egyptian military rule in general. So if you supported democracy in Egypt, you were now "forced" to change your opinion or face potential punishment (at best, deportation).

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

briandear 9y ago

WHat would the US be expected to do? If they try to “help,” they get criticized for being imperialists, if they don’t help, it’s because of a CIA conspiracy. Should the U.S. get involved more with Turkey? How about sanctioning Mexico for journalists being killed? Perhaps they should sanction Germany for arresting someone for exercising free speech (despite it being against German law.) Maybe Pakistan for tolerating revenge rapes order by local councils. There is a lot of nastiness in the world, yet for the U.S. it’s damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Why doesn’t Europe do something about Thailand if we are suggesting that a foreign power should “do” something?

DanBC 9y ago
> Why doesn’t Europe do something We've started doing something: https://eeas.europa.eu/headquarters/headquarters-homepage/12558/-statement-by-the-hrvp-spokesperson-on-the-constitutional-referendum-in-thailand_en https://eeas.europa.eu/headquarters/headquarters-homepage/12...
geomark 9y ago
Generally I agree. But that doesn't mean the US gov should be friendly with a military dictator, ala Trump's invitation for Thailand's military dictator Prayuth to visit[1]. Although arms sales to Thailand were initially put on hold after the coup it seems they are back on[2]. And Thailand's human rights abuses are not limited to free speech imprisonment. Human trafficking and slavery in the fishing and shrimp farming industry continues unabated while western markets continue purchasing the slave-produced products[3]. There are more than enough reasons to apply sanctions to the regime but, as I said, it's just too cooperative with US spooks to risk losing. [1]https://www.voanews.com/a/thai-prime-minister-accepts-trump-invitation-visit-us/3832619.html https://www.voanews.com/a/thai-prime-minister-accepts-trump-... [2]http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-thailand-idUSKBN19K193 http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-thailand-idUSKBN19K193 [3]https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/mar/30/thailand-failing-to-stamp-out-murder-slavery-fishing-industry-starvation-forced-labour-trafficking https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/mar/30/t...
- bbarn 9y ago
  I'd be interested to know what end products these fish go to from point 3.
  - geomark 9y ago
    Investigative journalists publish reports every year or so. You can probably find more recent ones, but here's one from three years ago[1]. Many of the big supermarket chains are the end points for the slave-produced seafood products, Walmart, Carrefour, Costco, Tesco and some others. I think last year a couple of them threatened to stop buying from Thai suppliers, not sure if they made good on it. [1]https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2014/jun/10/supermarket-prawns-thailand-produced-slave-labour https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2014/jun/10/s...
jessaustin 9y ago
How about sanctioning Mexico for journalists being killed? Sanctions are only ever used as excuses for war. If USA actually gave a shit about Mexico we would cease the evil drug prohibition that creates and enriches gangsters who kill journalists. Don't hold your breath!
sjcsjc 9y ago
"for the U.S. it’s damned if you do, damned if you don’t." They're not damned if they don't. They're damned by their inconsistency. And that inconsistency makes it very easy for people to jump to the conclusion that principles are merely used as an excuse to pursue an unrelated agenda, all the while holding themselves forth as the righteous facing up to "evil-doers".
- afarrell 9y ago
  I was about to say that the only principle we have the resources to enforce consistently is neutrality, but that ship sailed long ago--far before we decided to cut the Japanese off from oil and scrap metal.
TorKlingberg 9y ago
Nobody wants the U.S. to go invade Thailand. American and other strong countries has a lot of soft power. People on the internet love to make fun of the "strongly worded letter", but that is how diplomacy and influence is done. It's certainly better than the false binary choice between doing nothing and starting a war.

drzaiusapelord 9y ago

>Don't expect the US to even condemn this stuff, much less take any action against the country. Uh we have a dictator wanna-be in office who has invited and praised more than a few bloodthirsty dictators since taking office. What exactly do you expect us to do here? Even with a different president, anything short of CIA or military action won't change life on the ground in Thailand. How many CIA and US military interventions do you applaud exactly? We overthrew Saddam and it cost the Iraqi people nearly 350,000 lives. That's the entire population of Iceland! The US/EU/NATO/UN should draw a red line with ethnic cleansing, genocide, chemical and nuclear weapons, etc but everyday jailing of dissidents in Asia? We'd be in a dozen wars if we tried to police that and sternly written letters don't get results. Be aware that Amnesty International claims 500,000 people are currently enduring punitive detention without charge or trial in China. This stuff is more or less the norm in Asian countries where Western-style governments never developed. American troops, State Dept, and CIA resources have better things to do than try to fix the unfixable in Asia.

Cyph0n 9y ago

Thailand is not a special case: the Gulf countries are exactly the same in this regard. For example, the UAE operates a dozen or so prisons in Yemen where it performs interrogations on "suspected" terrorists and provides intel to US intelligence agencies. Also, the prison sentence given to this activist is nothing compared to what is thrown around in the Gulf for similar "crimes".

novaleaf 9y ago
agreed, and unfortunately, having lived, worked, and hired in Thailand for many years, I'm not so certain that western style democracy is the way to go in the country. I'm not saying that the situation outlined in the article is "OK", just that there are many geo-political differences that many westerners are not aware of. An analogy I like to use is that Democracy is like giving money to someone in need. Some will use it wisely, some will not.
- geomark 9y ago
  One of the things that still seems strange to me after living in Thailand many years is that life under a military dictatorship is so much better than in a "democracy" (evil quotes because the US doesn't seem like a real democracy to me). At least as long as you aren't someone the government decides to target for saying something they don't like. A western style democracy would probably be worse for the majority of people in Thailand. None of that changes the fact that the brutal oppression of free speech (15 years in prison for saying something considered disparaging to the monarchy is pretty brutal) should be rebuked harshly by any country that holds free speech as an important value.
  - Cyph0n 9y ago
    > life under a military dictatorship is so much better than in a "democracy" I'm replying to both you and the parent since you both seem to support this stance. You are in no position to decide what is better for a group of people. Further, until the Thai experience democracy, neither you or anyone else actually knows how it will turn out. Perhaps most people you deal with hide their true beliefs about life under a monarchy. The opposite may also be true: people may really end up preferring autocracy! But until they are given a chance to try living in e.g. a proper constitutional monarchy, you simply cannot state such things with any certainty. > At least as long as you aren't someone the government decides to target for saying something they don't like. Remember, the government's opinion changes over time based on its interests. You might wake up one day to find that something you believe to be right contradicts directly with what the government thinks. Here's a simple, recent example I lived through back in 2011. The UAE government was not very supportive of the Arab Spring, but you were fine as long as you didn't protest or call for a change in the status quo. Pretty fair, given that you are living under a monarchy. But the UAE decided to back a military coup in 2013 which ousted the Muslim Brotherhood and reverted Egypt back to an autocracy. With this move, the UAE outlawed any criticism or questioning of either the UAE's position or Egyptian military rule in general. So if you supported democracy in Egypt, you were now "forced" to change your opinion or face potential punishment (at best, deportation).