7 ms·

I'm curious, if you imagine a possible historical situation, let's say a German business owner in the 1930s that took a stance of not offering services to Nazi

by mbrock 9y ago

I'm curious, if you imagine a possible historical situation, let's say a German business owner in the 1930s that took a stance of not offering services to Nazi organizations, does that appear commendable, or bad in the same "slippery slope" way that you apply in the present situation? It seems to me that such a business owner would seem in hindsight to have been acting virtuously, and it seems that businesses that did in fact offer services to e.g. the Nazi party are now tarnished morally because of that.

meric 9y ago
> It seems to me that such a business owner would seem in hindsight to have been acting virtuously, No it wouldn't - There is a large percentage of population joining Nazi parties for convenience, for their career or even out of fear. Are you going to deny them the food you sell from your shop? If they are Nazi's, are they still not human beings deserving to access food in the market? Does someone being a member of the Nazi party mean we can let them starve to death? Shoot them and push them into a trench even? The moment you dehumanise vast swathes of the population, you've already lost and dropped to the level of "Nazi's". It's not wise to let your enemies turn you into them.
- mbrock 9y ago
  Well, I might ask whether you think there is a difference between selling food to an individual who happens to be a member of the Nazi party, and catering for a Nazi party event?
  - meric 9y ago
    The bottom line is: Am I going to let a man starve himself to death while I have a shop full of food? No.
    - mbrock 9y ago
      What if that man is, for example, threatening your family or friends?
      - meric 9y ago
        In 2017 we have prisons and we don't starve anyone in there.
        selllikesybok 9y ago
        Well, actually... https://www.google.com/amp/s/spoonuniversity.com/news/the-disgusting-truth-behind-prison-food-in-america/amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/spoonuniversity.com/news/the-di...
    - zer0tonin 9y ago
      If letting this man starve himself to death could save hundred of others I wouldn't hesitate.
- croon 9y ago
  > If they are Nazi's, are they still not human beings deserving to access food in the market? No, they can stop being nazi's at any point. Literally in less than a second. Blacks, jews, gays, disabled people can't. Stop trying to equate the two. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
  - rayiner 9y ago
    People can abandon their religion at any time, but we still protect peoples' religious rights, no matter how odious their beliefs.
    - croon 9y ago
      No we don't, not when the religion (badly interpreted) promotes murder, ie radical islam. Are you pretending that nazism can be interpreted charitably? I can kill someone and claim it's for buddhism or my local sports team, but there is no basis for either of those promoting murder. Nazism not so.
      - rayiner 9y ago
        The penalty for leaving Islam (apostasy) is death. Many muslims believe it (like, the majority of the populations of places like Pakistan and Egypt). I guarantee you that you could not, consistent with the Civil Rights Act of 1964, deny service to Muslims merely for expressing the belief that apostates should be put to death.
        croon 9y ago
        I actually agree with you, and Christianity has the same problem in writing. But the difference (or similarity?) is that only a diminishingly tiny fraction of practitioners for either religion believes in stoning. If I asked you to give me a few key points of the tenets of Islam and Christianity, would any be about killing, eradicating, or persecution of people? If I asked you to do the same for Nazism? Are you going to pretend it's comparable?
- coldtea 9y ago
  >Does someone being a member of the Nazi party mean we can let them starve to death? Shoot them and push them into a trench even? Historically, yes.
- norea-armozel 9y ago
  Let me ask you this then. If a homeless Nazi begged me for a dollar to get a McMuffin (not sure if those are on the dollar menu but take it as part of the hypothetical here) so they won't starve that day and I refuse to give them a dollar because they are an unrepentant Nazi, am I a bad person? At what point do I as an individual have the right to not associate with a group or ideology that's seeks my destruction? Because that's really what's at the heart of the matter whether we're talking about Cloudflare or just me because I'm sure that Cloudflare has Jews, racial minorities, and LGBT folks on their staff. And I'm sure even some of those folks are even investors. So why should the investors and employees of Cloudflare protect Nazis who seek their destruction? For money? I can accept that it's a matter of profit, but if you're asking for a moral basis to aid those that want to kill you I can't see there being any argument in favor of protecting or aiding them.
coldtea 9y ago
>I'm curious, if you imagine a possible historical situation, let's say a German business owner in the 1930s that took a stance of not offering services to Nazi organizations, does that appear commendable, or bad in the same "slippery slope" way that you apply in the present situation? How about the possible historical situation where a business owners doesn't offer services to the irish, jews, gays, blacks, etc? Because those things have also happened -- and when you say it's ok to refuse those services to a group, you open a window for refusing those services to other groups too. Just because consensus or power today is with the "good groups" (as far as you're concerned) doesn't change that fact. It's even worse when what's right and wrong is even more muddy. E.g. someone criticizing their own country (like the Vietnam war protests) or in favor of a regime change etc.
- croon 9y ago
  > How about the possible historical situation where a business owners doesn't offer services to the irish, jews, gays, blacks, etc? I'm sorry if someone was born a nazi then.
  - coldtea 9y ago
    Then you wouldn't mind if they didn't offer services to vegans, christians, hackers, etc, right?
    - croon 9y ago
      Not when they start organizing murder, no. I must have missed the memo on us hackers. What group of traits in people do we blame for our woes? Just so I know who we want to exterminate. I know this isn't a place for sarcasm, but when I can't tell if your comparison is sarcastic or not, I have a hard time not responding in kind.
      - joering2 9y ago
        > Not when they start organizing murder, no. I think you are misinformed (I assume you talk about natzis). Not all natzis are violent or are looking for violence. There are plenty of pre-war natzis that loved how Hitler pulled their country from dispair of economical and technological swamp, created economy of solid growth and created hundreds of thausands of jobs. Up to this point Hitler was an incredible leader and actually all those real successes as a politican made him being voted to become Germans fuerer. As with any other group or person views, a reasonable person never agrees with anyything they say or believe. Thats called fanatism. Look at Trump. Mamy things he do or say are reasonable and as a POTUS he sould be praised for. On the other hand you shouldnt agree with him when he talks crap. So its wrong to say all natzis are looking for violence, just like its wrong to say all Muslims are looking to blow thmeselves up in crouded spot.
cm2187 9y ago
A more realistic historical example than yours (which assumes hindsight): what about the McCarthyism? "If these guys are communist let's not give them jobs, particularly in the medias where they could spread their ideas". The US liberals kept a pretty sour memory of McCarthyism. But fundamentally it is no different.
- JohnStrange 9y ago
  There are many differences: 1. Nazis started WW2 with around 80 million deaths, including hundreds of thousands US soldiers, and killed 5-6 million Jews in the gas chambers of concentration camps. 2. McCarthyism originated from and was systematically exerted by the US government in many official capacities. There were vetting committees, job prohibitions, and other direct government interference including using intelligence agencies to gain information on US citizens. They didn't let Charlie Chaplin enter the US. That's very different from a private company that ceases to make business with a Nazi website due to violations of their ToS. On a side note, John von Neumann suggested to government officials to pro-actively launch a nuclear strike on Moskow. That tells you how different the climate was then as opposed to now.
  - mantas 9y ago
    Communists have started WW2 along with Nazis and are responsible for a big chunk of those deaths. They killed a lot of people in gulags as well. If people with the this mindset would get to official government, how long would it take to launch McCarthyist-like policies?
    - JohnStrange 9y ago
      This is complete and utter nonsense. WW2 was started by the Germans under direct supervision and order of Adolf Hitler, by attacking Poland under false pretense. Later on Hitler attacked Russia despite a peace treaty he had signed, and yes, a large majority of the victims of WW2 were Russians who had the highest death toll among all nations. Your comment and many others in this thread are a shame for humanity, and I mean that seriously without hyperbole.

by mbrock 9y ago

meric 9y ago

> It seems to me that such a business owner would seem in hindsight to have been acting virtuously, No it wouldn't - There is a large percentage of population joining Nazi parties for convenience, for their career or even out of fear. Are you going to deny them the food you sell from your shop? If they are Nazi's, are they still not human beings deserving to access food in the market? Does someone being a member of the Nazi party mean we can let them starve to death? Shoot them and push them into a trench even? The moment you dehumanise vast swathes of the population, you've already lost and dropped to the level of "Nazi's". It's not wise to let your enemies turn you into them.

mbrock 9y ago
Well, I might ask whether you think there is a difference between selling food to an individual who happens to be a member of the Nazi party, and catering for a Nazi party event?
- meric 9y ago
  The bottom line is: Am I going to let a man starve himself to death while I have a shop full of food? No.
  - mbrock 9y ago
    What if that man is, for example, threatening your family or friends?
    - meric 9y ago
      In 2017 we have prisons and we don't starve anyone in there.
      - selllikesybok 9y ago
        Well, actually... https://www.google.com/amp/s/spoonuniversity.com/news/the-disgusting-truth-behind-prison-food-in-america/amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/spoonuniversity.com/news/the-di...
  - zer0tonin 9y ago
    If letting this man starve himself to death could save hundred of others I wouldn't hesitate.
croon 9y ago
> If they are Nazi's, are they still not human beings deserving to access food in the market? No, they can stop being nazi's at any point. Literally in less than a second. Blacks, jews, gays, disabled people can't. Stop trying to equate the two. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
- rayiner 9y ago
  People can abandon their religion at any time, but we still protect peoples' religious rights, no matter how odious their beliefs.
  - croon 9y ago
    No we don't, not when the religion (badly interpreted) promotes murder, ie radical islam. Are you pretending that nazism can be interpreted charitably? I can kill someone and claim it's for buddhism or my local sports team, but there is no basis for either of those promoting murder. Nazism not so.
    - rayiner 9y ago
      The penalty for leaving Islam (apostasy) is death. Many muslims believe it (like, the majority of the populations of places like Pakistan and Egypt). I guarantee you that you could not, consistent with the Civil Rights Act of 1964, deny service to Muslims merely for expressing the belief that apostates should be put to death.
      - croon 9y ago
        I actually agree with you, and Christianity has the same problem in writing. But the difference (or similarity?) is that only a diminishingly tiny fraction of practitioners for either religion believes in stoning. If I asked you to give me a few key points of the tenets of Islam and Christianity, would any be about killing, eradicating, or persecution of people? If I asked you to do the same for Nazism? Are you going to pretend it's comparable?
coldtea 9y ago
>Does someone being a member of the Nazi party mean we can let them starve to death? Shoot them and push them into a trench even? Historically, yes.
norea-armozel 9y ago
Let me ask you this then. If a homeless Nazi begged me for a dollar to get a McMuffin (not sure if those are on the dollar menu but take it as part of the hypothetical here) so they won't starve that day and I refuse to give them a dollar because they are an unrepentant Nazi, am I a bad person? At what point do I as an individual have the right to not associate with a group or ideology that's seeks my destruction? Because that's really what's at the heart of the matter whether we're talking about Cloudflare or just me because I'm sure that Cloudflare has Jews, racial minorities, and LGBT folks on their staff. And I'm sure even some of those folks are even investors. So why should the investors and employees of Cloudflare protect Nazis who seek their destruction? For money? I can accept that it's a matter of profit, but if you're asking for a moral basis to aid those that want to kill you I can't see there being any argument in favor of protecting or aiding them.

coldtea 9y ago

>I'm curious, if you imagine a possible historical situation, let's say a German business owner in the 1930s that took a stance of not offering services to Nazi organizations, does that appear commendable, or bad in the same "slippery slope" way that you apply in the present situation? How about the possible historical situation where a business owners doesn't offer services to the irish, jews, gays, blacks, etc? Because those things have also happened -- and when you say it's ok to refuse those services to a group, you open a window for refusing those services to other groups too. Just because consensus or power today is with the "good groups" (as far as you're concerned) doesn't change that fact. It's even worse when what's right and wrong is even more muddy. E.g. someone criticizing their own country (like the Vietnam war protests) or in favor of a regime change etc.

croon 9y ago
> How about the possible historical situation where a business owners doesn't offer services to the irish, jews, gays, blacks, etc? I'm sorry if someone was born a nazi then.
- coldtea 9y ago
  Then you wouldn't mind if they didn't offer services to vegans, christians, hackers, etc, right?
  - croon 9y ago
    Not when they start organizing murder, no. I must have missed the memo on us hackers. What group of traits in people do we blame for our woes? Just so I know who we want to exterminate. I know this isn't a place for sarcasm, but when I can't tell if your comparison is sarcastic or not, I have a hard time not responding in kind.
    - joering2 9y ago
      > Not when they start organizing murder, no. I think you are misinformed (I assume you talk about natzis). Not all natzis are violent or are looking for violence. There are plenty of pre-war natzis that loved how Hitler pulled their country from dispair of economical and technological swamp, created economy of solid growth and created hundreds of thausands of jobs. Up to this point Hitler was an incredible leader and actually all those real successes as a politican made him being voted to become Germans fuerer. As with any other group or person views, a reasonable person never agrees with anyything they say or believe. Thats called fanatism. Look at Trump. Mamy things he do or say are reasonable and as a POTUS he sould be praised for. On the other hand you shouldnt agree with him when he talks crap. So its wrong to say all natzis are looking for violence, just like its wrong to say all Muslims are looking to blow thmeselves up in crouded spot.

cm2187 9y ago

A more realistic historical example than yours (which assumes hindsight): what about the McCarthyism? "If these guys are communist let's not give them jobs, particularly in the medias where they could spread their ideas". The US liberals kept a pretty sour memory of McCarthyism. But fundamentally it is no different.

JohnStrange 9y ago
There are many differences: 1. Nazis started WW2 with around 80 million deaths, including hundreds of thousands US soldiers, and killed 5-6 million Jews in the gas chambers of concentration camps. 2. McCarthyism originated from and was systematically exerted by the US government in many official capacities. There were vetting committees, job prohibitions, and other direct government interference including using intelligence agencies to gain information on US citizens. They didn't let Charlie Chaplin enter the US. That's very different from a private company that ceases to make business with a Nazi website due to violations of their ToS. On a side note, John von Neumann suggested to government officials to pro-actively launch a nuclear strike on Moskow. That tells you how different the climate was then as opposed to now.
- mantas 9y ago
  Communists have started WW2 along with Nazis and are responsible for a big chunk of those deaths. They killed a lot of people in gulags as well. If people with the this mindset would get to official government, how long would it take to launch McCarthyist-like policies?
  - JohnStrange 9y ago
    This is complete and utter nonsense. WW2 was started by the Germans under direct supervision and order of Adolf Hitler, by attacking Poland under false pretense. Later on Hitler attacked Russia despite a peace treaty he had signed, and yes, a large majority of the victims of WW2 were Russians who had the highest death toll among all nations. Your comment and many others in this thread are a shame for humanity, and I mean that seriously without hyperbole.