24 ms·

I don't understand fighting fascism with fascism.

by CodeWriter23 9y ago

wooter 9y ago
red shirts vs brown shirts =( and the rest of us get shafted
mschuster91 9y ago
There is nothing fascist in beating up Nazis.
- generic_user 9y ago
  Please do not condone the use of violence against (insert bad people) on HN. That is totally beyond any legitimate conversation and is illegal and morally repugnant.
  - mschuster91 9y ago
    I just said that there is nothing inherently fascist in beating up Nazis. That is not what you claim I said (that I condone violence).
    - generic_user 9y ago
      I think your statement is very short and in the flow of the thread reads poorly if your intention was to say that committing violence can be done by people other then fascists. It reads as an implicit moralization. But your correct that it is not an explicit statement. So if that was not your intention then I rescind my accusation.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    Noting that something does not meet the definition of “fascism” isn't condoning it.
icu 9y ago
Exactly. I believe the best way to fight fascism is to have open dialogue and expose repugnant ideas to the court of public opinion. This requires free speech. The initiation of force outside of self defence is amoral.
- selllikesybok 9y ago
  And in defense of others?
- aaomidi 9y ago
  You could believe this, but that doesn't make it the proper way. To be honest, we don't know how to stop these ideas. The nazi party came into power with less than 40% approval and gained that power that nearly destroyed the world. It's scary to say but there are theories floating around from hundreds of years ago that were made by different philosophers about the nature of these. For example, the paradox of tolerance is one of these theories. I'm not saying we should be violent, I'm just saying we have absolutely no idea how to deal with this.
  - rendall 9y ago
    "The nazi party came into power with less than 40% approval and gained that power that nearly destroyed the world." The Nazis first attacked and destroyed the free press and other free-speech institutions. Robust legal protections for free speech, and a culture of vigorously defending it, will prevent tyrants from gaining and maintaining power. There is no 'paradox of tolerance'. The intolerant are intolerant, no matter which side they are on. Peaceful racists should have their say. We are all free to disagree and shun them. This isn't ivory tower. This is part and parcel of a free and open society.
    - pm90 9y ago
      I fear though that "Peaceful Racists" will spread to all conservatives. That > 60 million people could legitimately vote for a racist, xenophobic and sexist bigot seem to point out that these people are OK with racism, even if they're not active participants. Which is extremely disturbing. From what I've read, anti-semitism, while it existed, wasn't mainstream in Germany as well. But the Nazis were "Peaceful Racists" at first (they changed pretty quickly) and seized power. I genuinely fear the same might happen in the US ...
cc81 9y ago
It is not necessarily fascism just because they use violence. They view it as Nazis work towards a a violent society where certain minorities will be oppressed or even killed. So using violence to stop that is warranted just like it is for example warranted for the state to use violence to capture and hold a person that is preparing a terrorist attack. I disagree of course as even though I really dislike Nazis political violence is something that is really dangerous for our democracy. For example in in town in Sweden one Antifa group jumped and beat up a libertarian politician just because he was seen as promoting politics that was hostile towards workers. Generally that is not something Antifa does but when you start using political violence is easy to use those methods more and more. Or inspire other groups that they should do it as well.
- generic_user 9y ago
  Americans are legally armed and have the right to defend themselves under the constitution. This ideology that Antifa is going to use physical violence to stop people in America from exercising there constitutional rights to free speech is one of the most dangerous ideas I have seen in some time. These people in Antifa are going to get themselves killed and the people who use deadly force to protect themselves will walk away with out any charges. Its a miracle that there has not been any deaths up to this point.
  - someguydave 9y ago
    I can't think of a better advertisement for Nazis than "we will protect you from Antifa" Antifa does realize they are creating thier own adversaries, right?
dragonwriter 9y ago
I don't think you understand what fascism is.
dragonwriter 9y ago
I don't think you understand what fascism is.

I don't understand fighting fascism with fascism.

wooter 9y ago

red shirts vs brown shirts =( and the rest of us get shafted

mschuster91 9y ago

There is nothing fascist in beating up Nazis.

generic_user 9y ago
Please do not condone the use of violence against (insert bad people) on HN. That is totally beyond any legitimate conversation and is illegal and morally repugnant.
- mschuster91 9y ago
  I just said that there is nothing inherently fascist in beating up Nazis. That is not what you claim I said (that I condone violence).
  - generic_user 9y ago
    I think your statement is very short and in the flow of the thread reads poorly if your intention was to say that committing violence can be done by people other then fascists. It reads as an implicit moralization. But your correct that it is not an explicit statement. So if that was not your intention then I rescind my accusation.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  Noting that something does not meet the definition of “fascism” isn't condoning it.

icu 9y ago

Exactly. I believe the best way to fight fascism is to have open dialogue and expose repugnant ideas to the court of public opinion. This requires free speech. The initiation of force outside of self defence is amoral.

selllikesybok 9y ago
And in defense of others?
aaomidi 9y ago
You could believe this, but that doesn't make it the proper way. To be honest, we don't know how to stop these ideas. The nazi party came into power with less than 40% approval and gained that power that nearly destroyed the world. It's scary to say but there are theories floating around from hundreds of years ago that were made by different philosophers about the nature of these. For example, the paradox of tolerance is one of these theories. I'm not saying we should be violent, I'm just saying we have absolutely no idea how to deal with this.
- rendall 9y ago
  "The nazi party came into power with less than 40% approval and gained that power that nearly destroyed the world." The Nazis first attacked and destroyed the free press and other free-speech institutions. Robust legal protections for free speech, and a culture of vigorously defending it, will prevent tyrants from gaining and maintaining power. There is no 'paradox of tolerance'. The intolerant are intolerant, no matter which side they are on. Peaceful racists should have their say. We are all free to disagree and shun them. This isn't ivory tower. This is part and parcel of a free and open society.
  - pm90 9y ago
    I fear though that "Peaceful Racists" will spread to all conservatives. That > 60 million people could legitimately vote for a racist, xenophobic and sexist bigot seem to point out that these people are OK with racism, even if they're not active participants. Which is extremely disturbing. From what I've read, anti-semitism, while it existed, wasn't mainstream in Germany as well. But the Nazis were "Peaceful Racists" at first (they changed pretty quickly) and seized power. I genuinely fear the same might happen in the US ...

cc81 9y ago

It is not necessarily fascism just because they use violence. They view it as Nazis work towards a a violent society where certain minorities will be oppressed or even killed. So using violence to stop that is warranted just like it is for example warranted for the state to use violence to capture and hold a person that is preparing a terrorist attack. I disagree of course as even though I really dislike Nazis political violence is something that is really dangerous for our democracy. For example in in town in Sweden one Antifa group jumped and beat up a libertarian politician just because he was seen as promoting politics that was hostile towards workers. Generally that is not something Antifa does but when you start using political violence is easy to use those methods more and more. Or inspire other groups that they should do it as well.

generic_user 9y ago
Americans are legally armed and have the right to defend themselves under the constitution. This ideology that Antifa is going to use physical violence to stop people in America from exercising there constitutional rights to free speech is one of the most dangerous ideas I have seen in some time. These people in Antifa are going to get themselves killed and the people who use deadly force to protect themselves will walk away with out any charges. Its a miracle that there has not been any deaths up to this point.
- someguydave 9y ago
  I can't think of a better advertisement for Nazis than "we will protect you from Antifa" Antifa does realize they are creating thier own adversaries, right?

dragonwriter 9y ago

I don't think you understand what fascism is.

dragonwriter 9y ago

I don't think you understand what fascism is.