6 ms·

Racism and hate speech are not indications of future violence. You can go to any internet space and find thousands of hateful and racist people. The chances of

Racism and hate speech are not indications of future violence. You can go to any internet space and find thousands of hateful and racist people. The chances of any of them committing violence is extremely low.

SwellJoe 9y ago
Right wing extremists are responsible for more terrorist attacks on US soil than any other group.
- boobsbr 9y ago
  Source?
  - SwellJoe 9y ago
    Here are a few: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/us/tally-of-attacks-in-us-challenges-perceptions-of-top-terror-threat.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/us/tally-of-attacks-in-us... http://www.newsweek.com/2016/02/12/right-wing-extremists-militants-bigger-threat-america-isis-jihadists-422743.html http://www.newsweek.com/2016/02/12/right-wing-extremists-mil... http://www.npr.org/2015/06/24/417192057/right-wing-extremists-more-dangerous-than-islamic-terrorists-in-u-s http://www.npr.org/2015/06/24/417192057/right-wing-extremist... http://www.newsweek.com/right-wing-extremism-islamist-terrorism-donald-trump-steve-bannon-628381 http://www.newsweek.com/right-wing-extremism-islamist-terror... http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/aug/16/look-data-domestic-terrorism-and-whos-behind-it/ http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/aug/16/... http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/terrorism-right-wing-america-muslims-islam-white-supremacists-study-a7805831.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics...
    - wooter 9y ago
      so? do you want to forgo the civil rights of muslims on a similar basis? of course not.
      - SwellJoe 9y ago
        Comparing Neo-Nazis to Muslims is incredible, and it says something ugly about your beliefs about Neo-Nazis and about Muslims. If, instead, you mean, civil rights for members of Muslim extremist organizations, then your comparison would be reasonable. So, you tell me. Should Al Qaeda be given permits for rallies across the US to recruit people to commit acts of terror? We aren't talking about people who merely say racist things. No one is suggesting racists should have their speech curtailed, as repugnant as that speech may be. We are discussing groups that have as their stated goal the violent overthrow of the US government and imposition of a white ethno-state. It's not a secret that's what they stand for and what they are recruiting for. They talk about it pretty openly, and it can be confirmed by spending even a little time in their online or real world spaces. It is false equivalence, and gross, to compare Neo-Nazis to Muslims. There is no similarity there. There are violent extremists that are Muslims, but it is not the stated purpose of the religion or the majority of the people (or even a notable percentage) who practice that religion. Neo-Nazis, the groups represented by the Unite The Right rally, are violent extremists, both in word and deed, and it isn't a secret or small percentage of their numbers. It is why the organizations exist.
        wooter 9y ago
        i never drew an equivalence between muslims and nazi's but go ahead and get offended if you want
        SwellJoe 9y ago
        I'm not sure how else to interpret it. What did you mean, if not how I interpreted your words?
        pm90 9y ago
        In all honesty, I got the same impression from your comment. Please try to be more careful with your wording; its hard to communicate true intention on an internet forum.
    - setra 9y ago
      I have only checked the first link however the NYT article from 2015 states "48 have been killed by extremists who are not Muslim, including the recent mass killing in Charleston, S.C., compared with 26 by self-proclaimed jihadists, according to a count by New America, a Washington research center." The pulse nightclub shooting alone killed 49 people. That is more than the entirety of the post 9/11 number white supremacist murders up to 2015 with a single event from 2016.
      - SwellJoe 9y ago
        I said "more terrorist attacks", which is accurate. I didn't make any claims about how deadly those terrorist attacks were. That Neo-Nazis aren't always good at terrorism is hardly a ringing endorsement or a thing to hold up as proof that we shouldn't be dealing with Neo-Nazi groups as terrorist organizations. Then again, the Oklahoma City bombing was the deadliest terror attack on US soil in our lifetimes prior to 9/11, and was committed by a right wing extremist. It is sort of arbitrary to draw the line at 9/11 (though maybe reasonable since it was such a devastating attack, and kinda blows the curve for any sort of accounting of other kinds of terror).
        setra 9y ago
        Generally we discard 9/11 from such discussions as it blows death toll comparisons out the window. Going post 9/11 stays both relevant to current times and removes the absolute worst events in both cases (Ok city, and 9/11). Doing comparisons without these cases we get similar numbers for both factions within some wide margin of error. Looking at this from a per capita perspective though we have Muslim Americans that make up around 1% of the population by my googling having a similar terrorism death toll as the 32% of the population that is right wing white Americans (white Americans being 64% of the population. This would make that faction 32 times more dangerous per capita than the white right wing.
        SwellJoe 9y ago
        I don't know that it's fair to place Neo-Nazis in the same set as moderate Republicans (i.e. all "right wing" people in the US). I feel like there's a particular kind of person that joins extremist organizations and commits terrorist acts, and Muslim extremists have more in common with Neo-Nazi terrorists than they do with moderate Muslims. Likewise, I suspect (hope) moderate Republicans have more in common with moderate Muslims than they do with right wing extremists. But, the way so many have jumped to defend Neo-Nazis or redirect blame for their violence has me pretty shook. I don't really know how to process someone looking at Charlottesville and saying, "it's the fault of the left". It doesn't even make sense, much less help the nation heal, and a lot of people with a lot of influence are doing it. It's pretty much terrifying that we have a president that is among the ranks of Neo-Nazi apologists, and that a large percentage of GOP leadership has said nothing. Maybe I'm giving moderate Republicans too much credit. Neo-Nazi leaders certainly feel vindicated by what's been coming out of a lot of mainstream Republican talking heads lately.
  - tzs 9y ago
    I don't know what his source was, but Googling "right wing terrorism" turns up this Politifact article [1], which cites this GAO report to Congress [2]. [1] http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/aug/16/look-data-domestic-terrorism-and-whos-behind-it/ http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/aug/16/... [2] http://www.gao.gov/assets/690/683984.pdf http://www.gao.gov/assets/690/683984.pdf
- GauntletWizard 9y ago
  You're absolutely right, but that's also beside the point. The KKK probably directly killed more people in the 60s - Not just black people and jews, but people who disagreed with them, people who agreed with them but were caught in crossfire or misidentified. That organization is vile and despicable, and as much as it is still possible within the bounds of justice to prosecute and lock up those responsible for such reprehensible acts, I completely agree. These terrorist acts, while pertinent to the current conversation, are not the same. We've (hopefully) moved on from the violence of our forebears, and the rise of white nationalism should be treated as a new occurrence. I hope it is one. The argument that it The police should be on hand at these 'demonstrations'. Many of them are actually violent. Many more have peaceful if disgusting protestors, and a few truly vile people that will incite incidents - And these get out of hand very quick. Police should be quick to stamp out these brawls. They need to immediately arrest the criminals who instigate violent acts. The important things to recognize are a) that the violence is instigated on both sides, and b) making yourself a target for violence is not an effective way of rooting out violence. They're correlated - Black Block members often toe the line in attempt to provoke. That's simply escalation. It make the Nazis think they're right and makes it easier for them to radicalize others - Because they're "being provoked", so why shouldn't they "fight back"? Escalation only makes it worse. As the old adage goes - "Don't wrestle with pigs; You both get dirty and the pig likes it". Antifa is wrestling with pigs. You can't fight Nazi's by fighting them with fists - They like that. You need to fight them by being better than them, and quite frankly, when they're winning you need to re-evaluate if you really are.

SwellJoe 9y ago

Right wing extremists are responsible for more terrorist attacks on US soil than any other group.

boobsbr 9y ago
Source?
- SwellJoe 9y ago
  Here are a few: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/us/tally-of-attacks-in-us-challenges-perceptions-of-top-terror-threat.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/us/tally-of-attacks-in-us... http://www.newsweek.com/2016/02/12/right-wing-extremists-militants-bigger-threat-america-isis-jihadists-422743.html http://www.newsweek.com/2016/02/12/right-wing-extremists-mil... http://www.npr.org/2015/06/24/417192057/right-wing-extremists-more-dangerous-than-islamic-terrorists-in-u-s http://www.npr.org/2015/06/24/417192057/right-wing-extremist... http://www.newsweek.com/right-wing-extremism-islamist-terrorism-donald-trump-steve-bannon-628381 http://www.newsweek.com/right-wing-extremism-islamist-terror... http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/aug/16/look-data-domestic-terrorism-and-whos-behind-it/ http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/aug/16/... http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/terrorism-right-wing-america-muslims-islam-white-supremacists-study-a7805831.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics...
  - wooter 9y ago
    so? do you want to forgo the civil rights of muslims on a similar basis? of course not.
    - SwellJoe 9y ago
      Comparing Neo-Nazis to Muslims is incredible, and it says something ugly about your beliefs about Neo-Nazis and about Muslims. If, instead, you mean, civil rights for members of Muslim extremist organizations, then your comparison would be reasonable. So, you tell me. Should Al Qaeda be given permits for rallies across the US to recruit people to commit acts of terror? We aren't talking about people who merely say racist things. No one is suggesting racists should have their speech curtailed, as repugnant as that speech may be. We are discussing groups that have as their stated goal the violent overthrow of the US government and imposition of a white ethno-state. It's not a secret that's what they stand for and what they are recruiting for. They talk about it pretty openly, and it can be confirmed by spending even a little time in their online or real world spaces. It is false equivalence, and gross, to compare Neo-Nazis to Muslims. There is no similarity there. There are violent extremists that are Muslims, but it is not the stated purpose of the religion or the majority of the people (or even a notable percentage) who practice that religion. Neo-Nazis, the groups represented by the Unite The Right rally, are violent extremists, both in word and deed, and it isn't a secret or small percentage of their numbers. It is why the organizations exist.
      - wooter 9y ago
        i never drew an equivalence between muslims and nazi's but go ahead and get offended if you want
        SwellJoe 9y ago
        I'm not sure how else to interpret it. What did you mean, if not how I interpreted your words?
        pm90 9y ago
        In all honesty, I got the same impression from your comment. Please try to be more careful with your wording; its hard to communicate true intention on an internet forum.
  - setra 9y ago
    I have only checked the first link however the NYT article from 2015 states "48 have been killed by extremists who are not Muslim, including the recent mass killing in Charleston, S.C., compared with 26 by self-proclaimed jihadists, according to a count by New America, a Washington research center." The pulse nightclub shooting alone killed 49 people. That is more than the entirety of the post 9/11 number white supremacist murders up to 2015 with a single event from 2016.
    - SwellJoe 9y ago
      I said "more terrorist attacks", which is accurate. I didn't make any claims about how deadly those terrorist attacks were. That Neo-Nazis aren't always good at terrorism is hardly a ringing endorsement or a thing to hold up as proof that we shouldn't be dealing with Neo-Nazi groups as terrorist organizations. Then again, the Oklahoma City bombing was the deadliest terror attack on US soil in our lifetimes prior to 9/11, and was committed by a right wing extremist. It is sort of arbitrary to draw the line at 9/11 (though maybe reasonable since it was such a devastating attack, and kinda blows the curve for any sort of accounting of other kinds of terror).
      - setra 9y ago
        Generally we discard 9/11 from such discussions as it blows death toll comparisons out the window. Going post 9/11 stays both relevant to current times and removes the absolute worst events in both cases (Ok city, and 9/11). Doing comparisons without these cases we get similar numbers for both factions within some wide margin of error. Looking at this from a per capita perspective though we have Muslim Americans that make up around 1% of the population by my googling having a similar terrorism death toll as the 32% of the population that is right wing white Americans (white Americans being 64% of the population. This would make that faction 32 times more dangerous per capita than the white right wing.
        SwellJoe 9y ago
        I don't know that it's fair to place Neo-Nazis in the same set as moderate Republicans (i.e. all "right wing" people in the US). I feel like there's a particular kind of person that joins extremist organizations and commits terrorist acts, and Muslim extremists have more in common with Neo-Nazi terrorists than they do with moderate Muslims. Likewise, I suspect (hope) moderate Republicans have more in common with moderate Muslims than they do with right wing extremists. But, the way so many have jumped to defend Neo-Nazis or redirect blame for their violence has me pretty shook. I don't really know how to process someone looking at Charlottesville and saying, "it's the fault of the left". It doesn't even make sense, much less help the nation heal, and a lot of people with a lot of influence are doing it. It's pretty much terrifying that we have a president that is among the ranks of Neo-Nazi apologists, and that a large percentage of GOP leadership has said nothing. Maybe I'm giving moderate Republicans too much credit. Neo-Nazi leaders certainly feel vindicated by what's been coming out of a lot of mainstream Republican talking heads lately.
- tzs 9y ago
  I don't know what his source was, but Googling "right wing terrorism" turns up this Politifact article [1], which cites this GAO report to Congress [2]. [1] http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/aug/16/look-data-domestic-terrorism-and-whos-behind-it/ http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/aug/16/... [2] http://www.gao.gov/assets/690/683984.pdf http://www.gao.gov/assets/690/683984.pdf
GauntletWizard 9y ago
You're absolutely right, but that's also beside the point. The KKK probably directly killed more people in the 60s - Not just black people and jews, but people who disagreed with them, people who agreed with them but were caught in crossfire or misidentified. That organization is vile and despicable, and as much as it is still possible within the bounds of justice to prosecute and lock up those responsible for such reprehensible acts, I completely agree. These terrorist acts, while pertinent to the current conversation, are not the same. We've (hopefully) moved on from the violence of our forebears, and the rise of white nationalism should be treated as a new occurrence. I hope it is one. The argument that it The police should be on hand at these 'demonstrations'. Many of them are actually violent. Many more have peaceful if disgusting protestors, and a few truly vile people that will incite incidents - And these get out of hand very quick. Police should be quick to stamp out these brawls. They need to immediately arrest the criminals who instigate violent acts. The important things to recognize are a) that the violence is instigated on both sides, and b) making yourself a target for violence is not an effective way of rooting out violence. They're correlated - Black Block members often toe the line in attempt to provoke. That's simply escalation. It make the Nazis think they're right and makes it easier for them to radicalize others - Because they're "being provoked", so why shouldn't they "fight back"? Escalation only makes it worse. As the old adage goes - "Don't wrestle with pigs; You both get dirty and the pig likes it". Antifa is wrestling with pigs. You can't fight Nazi's by fighting them with fists - They like that. You need to fight them by being better than them, and quite frankly, when they're winning you need to re-evaluate if you really are.