5 ms·

Do you have examples of ACLU defending antifa or black bloc events? They haven't, to my knowledge, but that's not even the most important difference. Antifa is

Do you have examples of ACLU defending antifa or black bloc events? They haven't, to my knowledge, but that's not even the most important difference. Antifa isn't a group or organization that holds rallies, and black bloc isn't a group at all (it's a tactic). Antifa shows up when right wing violence is expected. It is a direct response to white supremacist violence; remove white supremacist violence from the world, and you remove antifa from the world. They cease to show up, or show up in a different capacity, usually as peaceful protestors. Antifa is a desperate last line of defense against white supremacist violence, and not an organization (or, organizations since it is very loosely affiliated bunch of groups with often wildly different ideas about tactics and practices) that seeks violence. To compare Neo-Nazis to antifa is an irresponsible false equivalence. You can criticize antifa tactics (and, reasonably so, in many cases) without misleading people. There's enough misinformation coming from Fox News and Breitbart about what antifa is and does and why.

adekok 9y ago
Maybe the LA Times is better: http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-charlottesville-witnesses-20170815-story.html http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-charlottesville-witnesse... With witness testimony of antifa violence. In my own home town, I've seen the militant left engage in violent protest of "bad people". The "bad people" weren't actually doing anything other than talking. But OMFG we all know they're evil, right? So violent suppression of their free speech is a Good Thing. While I live in a generally left country, and am generally somewhat leftist myself, I find the tactics of the authoritarian left to be abhorrent. If someone can't talk reasonably with people on "the other side", they don't deserve my respect or support.
- SwellJoe 9y ago
  I don't understand how one can read that and come away with the gist of it being that antifa caused the violence in Charlottesville. The only people saying that are members of right wing extremist organizations that have, as their guiding principle, the genocide of non-white people. These are groups that planned and trained to wage war against counter-protestors, and for weeks leading up to the event posted to their social media about their weapons, smashing people's heads, etc. I've read a number of reports of the events in Charlottesville, and the overwhelming feeling I came away with was that antifa saved lives, in this case. One can reasonably criticize other times antifa has shown up; Berkeley, for example. But, I'm on team antifa in Charlottesville. I sure as hell don't want to be on the side of the Nazis who murdered someone. More eyewitness testimony about antifa in Charlottesville: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/08/what_the_alt_left_was_actually_doing_in_charlottesville.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/201... Edit: I think it's really important to recognize that violence is what Neo-Nazis are about. They are not rallying to express opinions, they are rallying to recruit and build a network of impressionable young men who will commit violent acts in pursuit of their goals. They were there specifically to find more people like James Alex Fields. To frame it as a peaceful political rally gone bad is to wholly misunderstand the threat Neo-Nazi organizations pose to our democracy.
  - overflowstack 9y ago
    Racism and hate speech are not indications of future violence. You can go to any internet space and find thousands of hateful and racist people. The chances of any of them committing violence is extremely low.
    - SwellJoe 9y ago
      Right wing extremists are responsible for more terrorist attacks on US soil than any other group.
      - boobsbr 9y ago
        Source?
        SwellJoe 9y ago
        Here are a few: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/us/tally-of-attacks-in-us-challenges-perceptions-of-top-terror-threat.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/us/tally-of-attacks-in-us... http://www.newsweek.com/2016/02/12/right-wing-extremists-militants-bigger-threat-america-isis-jihadists-422743.html http://www.newsweek.com/2016/02/12/right-wing-extremists-mil... http://www.npr.org/2015/06/24/417192057/right-wing-extremists-more-dangerous-than-islamic-terrorists-in-u-s http://www.npr.org/2015/06/24/417192057/right-wing-extremist... http://www.newsweek.com/right-wing-extremism-islamist-terrorism-donald-trump-steve-bannon-628381 http://www.newsweek.com/right-wing-extremism-islamist-terror... http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/aug/16/look-data-domestic-terrorism-and-whos-behind-it/ http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/aug/16/... http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/terrorism-right-wing-america-muslims-islam-white-supremacists-study-a7805831.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics...
        wooter 9y ago
        so? do you want to forgo the civil rights of muslims on a similar basis? of course not.
overflowstack 9y ago
> Antifa shows up when right wing violence is expected. Right wing violence is not expected until Antifa show up. If Antifa don't show up, there is no expected violence.
- SwellJoe 9y ago
  History teaches otherwise.
  - overflowstack 9y ago
    Do you have examples of right wing violence at modern day right wing protests that don't have counter protesters?
    - SwellJoe 9y ago
      Why would you want white supremacist rallies to not be counter-protested? If there's a white supremacist rally going without protest anywhere in this country, I will be horribly disappointed in my fellow Americans. Nazis must be protested, everywhere they show their angry entitled faces. Sometimes they become violent when criticized. Violence is core to Nazi beliefs, so it's not surprising when they become violent. Antifa is a defensive tool against that violence, to make it safer for others to protest against Nazis. Sometimes, antifa goes too far, perhaps. But, you're never going to make me feel sympathy for people who literally actively seek the death and degradation of millions of Americans.
      - CodeWriter23 9y ago
        If one wants their counter protest to be accepted at face value, maybe the organizers should institute a buffer zone. It seems like proximity foments violence, one way or the other.
        SwellJoe 9y ago
        I think that's a reasonable approach, and there has been criticism of police (on "many sides") that police in Charlottesville didn't do enough to protect peaceful protestors. In this case, it seems that all of the serious injuries were inflicted by Neo-Nazis on peaceful counter-protesters, but there have been cases where antifa has inflicted injury, perhaps even without provocation. Charlottesville police seemed underprepared for this event, in general. Many, many, reports from a wide variety of people noted a complete lack of police presence in a number of situations where violence occurred, or that police were present but merely observed violence taking place. This leads to a lot of mistrust of police, and also makes it harder for protesters who might like to remain non-violent to do so. If you see someone being beaten up by Nazis and police aren't stopping it, the only decent thing for an able-bodied person to do is to try to stop it.

adekok 9y ago

Maybe the LA Times is better: http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-charlottesville-witnesses-20170815-story.html http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-charlottesville-witnesse... With witness testimony of antifa violence. In my own home town, I've seen the militant left engage in violent protest of "bad people". The "bad people" weren't actually doing anything other than talking. But OMFG we all know they're evil, right? So violent suppression of their free speech is a Good Thing. While I live in a generally left country, and am generally somewhat leftist myself, I find the tactics of the authoritarian left to be abhorrent. If someone can't talk reasonably with people on "the other side", they don't deserve my respect or support.

SwellJoe 9y ago
I don't understand how one can read that and come away with the gist of it being that antifa caused the violence in Charlottesville. The only people saying that are members of right wing extremist organizations that have, as their guiding principle, the genocide of non-white people. These are groups that planned and trained to wage war against counter-protestors, and for weeks leading up to the event posted to their social media about their weapons, smashing people's heads, etc. I've read a number of reports of the events in Charlottesville, and the overwhelming feeling I came away with was that antifa saved lives, in this case. One can reasonably criticize other times antifa has shown up; Berkeley, for example. But, I'm on team antifa in Charlottesville. I sure as hell don't want to be on the side of the Nazis who murdered someone. More eyewitness testimony about antifa in Charlottesville: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/08/what_the_alt_left_was_actually_doing_in_charlottesville.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/201... Edit: I think it's really important to recognize that violence is what Neo-Nazis are about. They are not rallying to express opinions, they are rallying to recruit and build a network of impressionable young men who will commit violent acts in pursuit of their goals. They were there specifically to find more people like James Alex Fields. To frame it as a peaceful political rally gone bad is to wholly misunderstand the threat Neo-Nazi organizations pose to our democracy.
- overflowstack 9y ago
  Racism and hate speech are not indications of future violence. You can go to any internet space and find thousands of hateful and racist people. The chances of any of them committing violence is extremely low.
  - SwellJoe 9y ago
    Right wing extremists are responsible for more terrorist attacks on US soil than any other group.
    - boobsbr 9y ago
      Source?
      - SwellJoe 9y ago
        Here are a few: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/us/tally-of-attacks-in-us-challenges-perceptions-of-top-terror-threat.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/us/tally-of-attacks-in-us... http://www.newsweek.com/2016/02/12/right-wing-extremists-militants-bigger-threat-america-isis-jihadists-422743.html http://www.newsweek.com/2016/02/12/right-wing-extremists-mil... http://www.npr.org/2015/06/24/417192057/right-wing-extremists-more-dangerous-than-islamic-terrorists-in-u-s http://www.npr.org/2015/06/24/417192057/right-wing-extremist... http://www.newsweek.com/right-wing-extremism-islamist-terrorism-donald-trump-steve-bannon-628381 http://www.newsweek.com/right-wing-extremism-islamist-terror... http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/aug/16/look-data-domestic-terrorism-and-whos-behind-it/ http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/aug/16/... http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/terrorism-right-wing-america-muslims-islam-white-supremacists-study-a7805831.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics...
        wooter 9y ago
        so? do you want to forgo the civil rights of muslims on a similar basis? of course not.

overflowstack 9y ago

> Antifa shows up when right wing violence is expected. Right wing violence is not expected until Antifa show up. If Antifa don't show up, there is no expected violence.

SwellJoe 9y ago
History teaches otherwise.
- overflowstack 9y ago
  Do you have examples of right wing violence at modern day right wing protests that don't have counter protesters?
  - SwellJoe 9y ago
    Why would you want white supremacist rallies to not be counter-protested? If there's a white supremacist rally going without protest anywhere in this country, I will be horribly disappointed in my fellow Americans. Nazis must be protested, everywhere they show their angry entitled faces. Sometimes they become violent when criticized. Violence is core to Nazi beliefs, so it's not surprising when they become violent. Antifa is a defensive tool against that violence, to make it safer for others to protest against Nazis. Sometimes, antifa goes too far, perhaps. But, you're never going to make me feel sympathy for people who literally actively seek the death and degradation of millions of Americans.
    - CodeWriter23 9y ago
      If one wants their counter protest to be accepted at face value, maybe the organizers should institute a buffer zone. It seems like proximity foments violence, one way or the other.
      - SwellJoe 9y ago
        I think that's a reasonable approach, and there has been criticism of police (on "many sides") that police in Charlottesville didn't do enough to protect peaceful protestors. In this case, it seems that all of the serious injuries were inflicted by Neo-Nazis on peaceful counter-protesters, but there have been cases where antifa has inflicted injury, perhaps even without provocation. Charlottesville police seemed underprepared for this event, in general. Many, many, reports from a wide variety of people noted a complete lack of police presence in a number of situations where violence occurred, or that police were present but merely observed violence taking place. This leads to a lot of mistrust of police, and also makes it harder for protesters who might like to remain non-violent to do so. If you see someone being beaten up by Nazis and police aren't stopping it, the only decent thing for an able-bodied person to do is to try to stop it.