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> We ... take the clear position that the First Amendment does not protect people who incite or engage in violence. So does this apply to Antifa, BlackBloc, et
by gedy 9y ago
> We ... take the clear position that the First Amendment does not protect people who incite or engage in violence.
So does this apply to Antifa, BlackBloc, et al as well?
- yahna 9y agoYes. Why is it that people feel the need to bring this up? Are you that sensitive towards criticism of Nazis? You know if you want to stop people associating the right with Nazis you really just have to deal with your damn Nazi problem.
- tunesmith 9y agoI'm guessing that if members of those groups are practicing violence, they aren't arguing that their violence is free speech - they are aware they are breaking the law, but believe they are justified (in the context of some higher purpose) in doing so.
- danso 9y agoAntifa generally doesn't apply for protesting permits as I understand it, so maybe this is a question that ACLU hasn't had to deal with? edit: Being downvoted by people who might not have read the counter-protesters' permit: https://www.scribd.com/document/356483336/2017-Public-Demonstration-Unity-and-Love-Free-Speech-August-12-2017Certificate-of-Approval#from_embed https://www.scribd.com/document/356483336/2017-Public-Demons...
- gkoberger 9y agoThey had a permit this past weekend: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/08/16/president-trumps-false-claim-that-counter-demonstrators-lacked-a-permit/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/08/... I can't speak for other protests.
- danso 9y agoMaybe this is getting into a No True Scotsman argument, but that permit was not for what's often considered to be antifa. Being a counter-protester is not automatically antifa. From the link you posted: > Walt Heinecke, a professor at the University of Virginia, told Moyer that he received a “special events certificate of approval” for events at McGuffey Park and Justice Park — sites blocks from Emancipation Park, where white nationalists had a permit for a Saturday rally. Antifa, the group that is more commonly associated with things like Richard Spencer in the face, seems to be more informal: https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/1/26/14369388/richard-spencer-punched-alt-right-trump https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/1/26/14369388/richard-sp... Edit: Another example of what's associated with antifa: punching journalists http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4785564/Reporter-punched-face-Charlottesville-rally.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4785564/Reporter-pun...
- gkoberger 9y agoThis post doesn't blacklist any specific organizations, but rather any case that involve violence. The ACLU will likely continue[1] to defend peaceful white supremacists. The ban will go for any situation or organization that involves violence. As for Antifa, I've been unable to find any videos/pictures/unbiased reports that Antifa started any of the violence this past weekend. I don't understand the need to equate the two sides. If the KKK didn't exist, Antifa wouldn't exist. If Antifa didn't exist, the KKK still would. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/06/19/a-history-of-the-aclu-defending-confederate-veterans-the-kkk-and-rush-limbaugh/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/06/19/a-...
- geowwy 9y ago> If the KKK didn't exist, Antifa wouldn't exist. If Antifa didn't exist, the KKK still would. Not true. Antifa aren't just anti-racist protestors, they're a loose collection of Communist and Anarcho-communist groups. If fascism never existed those groups just rally under a different name.
- mschuster91 9y agoThe spectrum of Antifa is very wide, not just Communists. The only thing common about the various groups that make up Antifa is that we hate Nazis and other racist/fascist ideology and their supporters. Some of us promote and use violence to protect society from them, some of us do not.
- gedy 9y agoThanks, I'm referring to events such as the Berkeley Riots [1] where the violence was at least partly incited by Antifa. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Berkeley_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Berkeley_protests
- mayank 9y agoCorrect. The ACLU is saying they would not defend Antifa if they were arrested for speech inciting violence.
- SwellJoe 9y agoDo you have examples of ACLU defending antifa or black bloc events? They haven't, to my knowledge, but that's not even the most important difference. Antifa isn't a group or organization that holds rallies, and black bloc isn't a group at all (it's a tactic). Antifa shows up when right wing violence is expected. It is a direct response to white supremacist violence; remove white supremacist violence from the world, and you remove antifa from the world. They cease to show up, or show up in a different capacity, usually as peaceful protestors. Antifa is a desperate last line of defense against white supremacist violence, and not an organization (or, organizations since it is very loosely affiliated bunch of groups with often wildly different ideas about tactics and practices) that seeks violence. To compare Neo-Nazis to antifa is an irresponsible false equivalence. You can criticize antifa tactics (and, reasonably so, in many cases) without misleading people. There's enough misinformation coming from Fox News and Breitbart about what antifa is and does and why.
- adekok 9y agoMaybe the LA Times is better: http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-charlottesville-witnesses-20170815-story.html http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-charlottesville-witnesse... With witness testimony of antifa violence. In my own home town, I've seen the militant left engage in violent protest of "bad people". The "bad people" weren't actually doing anything other than talking. But OMFG we all know they're evil, right? So violent suppression of their free speech is a Good Thing. While I live in a generally left country, and am generally somewhat leftist myself, I find the tactics of the authoritarian left to be abhorrent. If someone can't talk reasonably with people on "the other side", they don't deserve my respect or support.
- SwellJoe 9y agoI don't understand how one can read that and come away with the gist of it being that antifa caused the violence in Charlottesville. The only people saying that are members of right wing extremist organizations that have, as their guiding principle, the genocide of non-white people. These are groups that planned and trained to wage war against counter-protestors, and for weeks leading up to the event posted to their social media about their weapons, smashing people's heads, etc. I've read a number of reports of the events in Charlottesville, and the overwhelming feeling I came away with was that antifa saved lives, in this case. One can reasonably criticize other times antifa has shown up; Berkeley, for example. But, I'm on team antifa in Charlottesville. I sure as hell don't want to be on the side of the Nazis who murdered someone. More eyewitness testimony about antifa in Charlottesville: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/08/what_the_alt_left_was_actually_doing_in_charlottesville.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/201... Edit: I think it's really important to recognize that violence is what Neo-Nazis are about. They are not rallying to express opinions, they are rallying to recruit and build a network of impressionable young men who will commit violent acts in pursuit of their goals. They were there specifically to find more people like James Alex Fields. To frame it as a peaceful political rally gone bad is to wholly misunderstand the threat Neo-Nazi organizations pose to our democracy.
- ece 9y agoThis is the wrong question to be asking, antifa and blackboc by definition only show up at fascist and racist rallies. This is what this statement is about: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/17/nyregion/aclu-free-speech-rights-charlottesville-skokie-rally.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/17/nyregion/aclu-free-speech...
- ptaipale 9y agoYou mean that the G20 meeting of state heads in Hamburg was a "fascist and racist rally"? Antifa and the extreme left do apply that kind of rhetoric in their critique of "capitalism", but I find it quite extreme and not to be taken seriously. Still, the black block trashed the city and attacked people with deadly force (it's a wonder no one was killed.)
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- ece 9y agoThere is a point between a peaceful environmental or justice or equality protest and something as inherently violent as fascism or racism which was the mix in Charlottesville. Historically, fascism has always had an aspect of violence, and the same with racism. You simply cannot make the same case with either antifa or even black block, they are reactionary to fascism and oppression, if not racism respectively. Black bloc has its roots opposing police violence, and this is consistent through their history, so I should have said "fascist, racist and anti-oppression rally"
- ptaipale 9y agoRiots in Hamburg were not anti-oppression. They were anti-people and anti-city.
- ece 9y agoThe use of violence as a tactic while wrong isn't the same as violence-dependent ideologies like fascism and racism. Both should be opposed in effective ways. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/17/opinion/how-to-make-fun-of-nazis.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/17/opinion/how-to-make-fun-o...