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And people said that gay people could make their own cake shops. Would you be fine with that?
by charia 9y ago
And people said that gay people could make their own cake shops. Would you be fine with that?
- genon 9y agoI'm genuinely shocked at how some people can so blithely, and possibly obliviously, throw out textbook pro-discrimination arguments when the target of the discrimination is something they don't happen to support.
- mbrock 9y agoLet's say you own a café. The local political youth group "Club Hitler" submits a proposal to have their weekly meetups in your venue. You agree, and they host a number of meetups. They then begin to publicize your venue's support for the Nazi cause as part of their promotional materials. At what point in this process do you think it would be been morally appropriate for you to cancel your service to this group?
- genon 9y agoAfter I warn them that I will cancel the service if they don't stop falsely claiming I endorse the Nazi cause, and they ignore my warning.
- belorn 9y agoThere exist laws which were explicitly written to address that kind of specific situation. If someone communicate a false statement that harms the reputation of an individual person, business, product, or group, that someone can be charged under defamation laws. Let say a local youth group submits a proposal to have their weekly meetups in your venue. They then begin to shoplift. What is the rational behavior to address this issue? I would start by calling the police and report the crime. I could then start denying service to them (which casinos are known to do). But if I start to do general statements about any people which share identity, belief, political membership, or sexual orientation with the local youth group then I am likely stepping a bit to far into the realm of discrimination. In a perfect world I think Cloudflare should have filed a police complaint in regard to the daily stormer and then canceled the account. Such decision would have nothing to do with regulating content, censorship, vigilante justice, or freedom of speech. It would just be a simple matter of a customer not obeying the law.
- howlgram 9y agoSociety is self-regulating, it's important to avoid herd-mentality within society, and that's why people talk about protecting free-speech, but when everyone agrees that something is not ok, e.g. sexual harrasment is not ok and shouldn't be protected by free speech, then there's really not a problem with allowing these rules to exist. A society where everything is ruled by some sacred maxims, like some sort of philosophical school, doesn't exist, life isn't that simple.
- vertex-four 9y agoGay people can't choose not to be gay. People can, however, choose whether they're going to be part of a political movement dedicated to the oppression and eventual "cleansing" of large groups of people primarily based on things those people can't choose. I really don't get why you can't see a difference.
- gasof 9y agoSo I guess we should forbid Zionism then? They actually succeeded in their ethnic cleansing of Israel. Can a baker refuse to bake a cake for pro-Israel Jews? What about pro-choicers, can I refuse to serve them because of their concrete genocidal acts?
- vertex-four 9y agoI'd suggest that you could very well refuse to serve someone over their support of whichever side in the current Palestine occupation, as an example of something that might reasonably happen. And I don't think there's anything that would actually prevent you from refusing to serve pro-choicers, except that you'd probably go out of business quite quickly. I'd suggest that your customers would have a right to boycott you, protest you, and attempt to socially shame you if you did either of those things.
- EdSharkey 9y agoPlease don't try to change the subject. The answer is: no, the baker cannot discriminate against pro-choice customers or else they'll be shutdown by the mob and cease being a baker. I think GP's point was that there's a nasty double standard as to whose conscience can be exercised and whose cannot. I think the gracious thing for you to do now would be to acknowledge that that double-standard exists AND confirm that you're fine with that double standard in some cases.
- vertex-four 9y agoThe baker can discriminate against pro-choice customers perfectly legally, as far as I'm aware. The same thing - the boycott and protests - will happen to the baker who discriminates against anti-choice customers in a rural town, except their customers might actually have legal backing since being anti-choice is usually a religious belief. What the society that baker operates in chooses to do about it is entirely separate from what the Government should be allowed to do about it. Yes, a "double-standard" exists in that people think that some forms of discrimination are reprehensible and others aren't. I think it's entirely reasonable that people use their freedom of speech and freedom not to interact with people they don't like in any way they see fit - to think otherwise is to deny people some of their core human rights. At the root of it all, the state is in the position of ensuring a person's livelihood, not me as an individual, not any individual business.
- olalonde 9y agoDefine "fine"? I believe that bigots should have the right to be bigots.
- JohnStrange 9y agoThe crucial difference that many people in this partly appalling thread (and partly even more appalling, mind-bogglingly fascist moderation) don't get is that gay people have not committed a Holocaust against 6 million Jews and also do not generally sympathize with people who advocate genocide, ethnic cleansing, etc. This thread is so full of false analogies, it's unbelievable. Should any business be obliged by law to make business with and thereby indirectly support advocates of genocide and racism? Should any business be forced to make business with Nazis, Red Khmer, Stalinists, etc.? If your answer is Yes, then I have bad news for you. No need to spell it out, though, as it's obvious...