4 ms·

I think the explanation is that bloated software is cheaper to make. It is cheaper to develop a .Net app than a C app. Cheaper in Development and maintenance.

by d--b 9y ago

I think the explanation is that bloated software is cheaper to make. It is cheaper to develop a .Net app than a C app. Cheaper in Development and maintenance. It is cheaper to not care about efficient data management, or indexed data structure. What we're losing in efficiency, we gain in code readability, maintainability, safety, time to market, etc.

sidlls 9y ago
I don't agree necessarily with the first three items on your list. In fact I think there is a sort of casual indifference to the first two that frequently borders on criminal neglect. Why bother with them when the "time to market" driver of methodology selects for the most easily replacable code? Safety is also debatable and mostly accidental. Most of the languages that are fast and "easy" to develop in rest on a core of C or C++, and are really only as safe as that code. Safer, because there may be fewer foot guns, but not necessarily "safe."
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
jasonhanley 9y ago
As a developer and development manager, I haven't personally noticed major improvements in any of those metrics over the past 20 years. But I'd definitely be interested in any studies that have tried to measure these over long time periods.
- hyperpallium 9y ago
  It's a gas law, as software expands to fill the available hardware. If it can reach a minimal standard with less work, a smaller budget is allocated.
- droidist2 9y ago
  If it's stayed the same that's a huge win because software has become incredibly more complex.
flukus 9y ago
> It is cheaper to develop a .Net app than a C app. Cheaper in Development and maintenance. I think this is true but I disagree that it's inherently true. Slapping a UI together with c and GTK is pretty strait forward for instance, here is a todo list where I did just that (https://gitlab.com/flukus/gtk-todo/blob/master/main.c https://gitlab.com/flukus/gtk-todo/blob/master/main.c). It's not a big example, but building the UI and wiring the events was only 40 lines of code, it's the most straightforward way I've every built a UI. More complicated things like displaying data from a database are harder, but I think this comes down to the libraries/tooling, the .net community has invested much more time in improving these things than the c community. > What we're losing in efficiency, we gain in code readability, maintainability, safety, time to market, etc. I don't think we've exhausted our options to have both. We can build things like DSL's that transform data definitions into fast and safe c code for instance. Imagine instead of something like dapper/EF doing runtime reflection we could build equivalent tools that are just as easy to use but do the work at compile time. Or we could do it via rusts kickass compile time meta programming.
- pjmlp 9y ago
  Try to slap some GTK components similar to these ones: https://www.devexpress.com/Products/NET/Controls/WPF/ https://www.devexpress.com/Products/NET/Controls/WPF/ Also are you sure your C app will have a high score on clang and gcc sanitizers?
mamcx 9y ago
C is too easy to target (and I say is a HUGE part of the problem). However, if you pick .NET vs Delphi you will see is easier to develop UI apps (and general apps) in Delphi than .NET. Even today. The exception is web apps, and web apps is another big problem that "normalize" bad architecture, bad language and bad ways to solve everything.
- pjc50 9y ago
  Really? Why do you say Delphi is easier? I work with people that maintain both C# and Delphi UI, and none of them think there is a future in Delphi.
  - pjmlp 9y ago
    The problem with Delphi was Borland kind of killed the product by pushing it to enterprises with deep pockets and taking too much time to adapt to 64 bits and newer platforms. The language itself is still quite ok.
  - mamcx 9y ago
    Being a good tool and have a bad management are orthogonal things. If wanna take a look for your self you can install Lazarus (http://www.lazarus-ide.org/ http://www.lazarus-ide.org/, discussed https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14973706 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14973706) a close clone of Delphi (version 7). Or download the free edition (modern): https://www.embarcadero.com/products/delphi/starter/promotional-download https://www.embarcadero.com/products/delphi/starter/promotio...

by d--b 9y ago

sidlls 9y ago

I don't agree necessarily with the first three items on your list. In fact I think there is a sort of casual indifference to the first two that frequently borders on criminal neglect. Why bother with them when the "time to market" driver of methodology selects for the most easily replacable code? Safety is also debatable and mostly accidental. Most of the languages that are fast and "easy" to develop in rest on a core of C or C++, and are really only as safe as that code. Safer, because there may be fewer foot guns, but not necessarily "safe."

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

jasonhanley 9y ago

As a developer and development manager, I haven't personally noticed major improvements in any of those metrics over the past 20 years. But I'd definitely be interested in any studies that have tried to measure these over long time periods.

hyperpallium 9y ago
It's a gas law, as software expands to fill the available hardware. If it can reach a minimal standard with less work, a smaller budget is allocated.
droidist2 9y ago
If it's stayed the same that's a huge win because software has become incredibly more complex.

flukus 9y ago

> It is cheaper to develop a .Net app than a C app. Cheaper in Development and maintenance. I think this is true but I disagree that it's inherently true. Slapping a UI together with c and GTK is pretty strait forward for instance, here is a todo list where I did just that (https://gitlab.com/flukus/gtk-todo/blob/master/main.c https://gitlab.com/flukus/gtk-todo/blob/master/main.c). It's not a big example, but building the UI and wiring the events was only 40 lines of code, it's the most straightforward way I've every built a UI. More complicated things like displaying data from a database are harder, but I think this comes down to the libraries/tooling, the .net community has invested much more time in improving these things than the c community. > What we're losing in efficiency, we gain in code readability, maintainability, safety, time to market, etc. I don't think we've exhausted our options to have both. We can build things like DSL's that transform data definitions into fast and safe c code for instance. Imagine instead of something like dapper/EF doing runtime reflection we could build equivalent tools that are just as easy to use but do the work at compile time. Or we could do it via rusts kickass compile time meta programming.

pjmlp 9y ago
Try to slap some GTK components similar to these ones: https://www.devexpress.com/Products/NET/Controls/WPF/ https://www.devexpress.com/Products/NET/Controls/WPF/ Also are you sure your C app will have a high score on clang and gcc sanitizers?

mamcx 9y ago

C is too easy to target (and I say is a HUGE part of the problem). However, if you pick .NET vs Delphi you will see is easier to develop UI apps (and general apps) in Delphi than .NET. Even today. The exception is web apps, and web apps is another big problem that "normalize" bad architecture, bad language and bad ways to solve everything.

pjc50 9y ago
Really? Why do you say Delphi is easier? I work with people that maintain both C# and Delphi UI, and none of them think there is a future in Delphi.
- pjmlp 9y ago
  The problem with Delphi was Borland kind of killed the product by pushing it to enterprises with deep pockets and taking too much time to adapt to 64 bits and newer platforms. The language itself is still quite ok.
- mamcx 9y ago
  Being a good tool and have a bad management are orthogonal things. If wanna take a look for your self you can install Lazarus (http://www.lazarus-ide.org/ http://www.lazarus-ide.org/, discussed https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14973706 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14973706) a close clone of Delphi (version 7). Or download the free edition (modern): https://www.embarcadero.com/products/delphi/starter/promotional-download https://www.embarcadero.com/products/delphi/starter/promotio...