4 ms·

Free speech, the cultural value, can only be protected by the government. The market doesn't demand things like liberty and justice.

stale2002 9y ago
It can be protected in lots of ways! For example, society can start firing people who make arguments against free speech. We could start banning their accounts on the internet, and refusing to serve them at restaurants. Your freedom to support censorship doesn't mean that you are free from consequences! ;)
- chickenfries 9y ago
  > For example, society can start firing people who make arguments against free speech. We could start banning their accounts on the internet, and refusing to serve them at restaurants. Yep, and at that point the only recourse you would have would be the government, right? > Your freedom to support censorship doesn't mean that you are free from consequences! ;) Your smugness suggests that you think this is surprising to me, rather than being my entire point. Businesses will do whatever they want, in their own self-interest. If we want them to do something else because we as a society value something like free speech, your options are to ignore it or to pass a law. If you're concerned about CloudFlare's ability to censor the internet, take it up with the government, because CloudFlare's commitment to free speech is good only as long as it makes business sense for them.
  - stale2002 9y ago
    Perhaps we could make a law. But at this point I think that it be better to just have a free market retaliatory war of "social consequences". IE, the pro censorship people get named and shamed and fired from their jobs (starting with the most extreme first) Then the pro censorship people would try to fix the problem with laws, ect.
    - chickenfries 9y ago
      Hey if that's what gets you going go for it. I think you'll find that most people will be way less willing to fire an employee for being a nazi than for being pro nazi social consequences. Wonder why that is. Edit: I had it backwards, obviously. I meant to say that most employers would find it much easier to fire a Nazi than someone who thinks Nazi's should be censored...
      - stale2002 9y ago
        Uhh, no. What you do is go after the Anarchists/hard core leftists/communists, who have beliefs that are equivalent to nazi beliefs. IE, the revolutionary leftists who have publicly stated things like "The liberals get the bullet too". Go look up that liberal phrase. It is actually quite common, among leftists. Radical leftist rhetoric is very violent these days, and is an interesting read. It is all about overthrowing the capitalist, imperialist "system", getting rid of civil rights, the "dictatorship of the proletariat", and killing those that are the "enemies" of leftists (which can range anywhere from literal Nazis, to "Trump Supporters",to Capitalists, to "liberals" who just support civil rights). Finding leftists who publicly call for mass murder is really easy. I mean, just look at all the people who publicly supported that guy who shot up a bunch of republican congressmen.
        chickenfries 9y ago
        Again... it's pretty obvious that being a black block protester or antifa can get you fired. That's the entire point of dressing in black and evading the police. They're perfectly aware that they're taking extra legal measures... > who have beliefs that are equivalent to nazi beliefs That's an interesting equivalence you've drawn there. Which races do they believe in exterminating again? I forgot. > publicly stated Where? > "The liberals get the bullet too". > Go look up that liberal phrase. It is actually quite common, among leftists. Liberals say that liberals get the bullet too? I had never actually heard that phrase before so I googled it. I can't seem to find anything about it from before 2017, so it seems like it got famous due to a piece of graffiti from earlier this year. While I don't doubt that there are people on the far left that say this kind of thing, I think they're pretty fringe and are more bark than bite. In reality these people actually vote for people like Bernie Sanders and Jeremy Corbyn. > Radical leftist rhetoric is very violent these days, and is an interesting read. It is all about overthrowing the capitalist, imperialist "system", getting rid of civil rights, the "dictatorship of the proletariat", and killing those that are the "enemies" of leftists (which can range anywhere from literal Nazis, to "Trump Supporters",to Capitalists, to "liberals" who just support civil rights). No offense, but your exposure to "leftism" seems pretty new and based on social media. Please do share what you're reading though... > Finding leftists who publicly call for mass murder is really easy. I mean, just look at all the people who publicly supported that guy who shot up a bunch of republican congressmen. Do people with their real names do that on twitter (I assume you're talking about twitter)? Or just eggs, like on the far right? What's really concerning to me is that the white nationalists and neo nazis are out without hoods or masks. They are not afraid of having their pictures taken. They think they can be weekend nazis.

stale2002 9y ago

It can be protected in lots of ways! For example, society can start firing people who make arguments against free speech. We could start banning their accounts on the internet, and refusing to serve them at restaurants. Your freedom to support censorship doesn't mean that you are free from consequences! ;)

chickenfries 9y ago
> For example, society can start firing people who make arguments against free speech. We could start banning their accounts on the internet, and refusing to serve them at restaurants. Yep, and at that point the only recourse you would have would be the government, right? > Your freedom to support censorship doesn't mean that you are free from consequences! ;) Your smugness suggests that you think this is surprising to me, rather than being my entire point. Businesses will do whatever they want, in their own self-interest. If we want them to do something else because we as a society value something like free speech, your options are to ignore it or to pass a law. If you're concerned about CloudFlare's ability to censor the internet, take it up with the government, because CloudFlare's commitment to free speech is good only as long as it makes business sense for them.
- stale2002 9y ago
  Perhaps we could make a law. But at this point I think that it be better to just have a free market retaliatory war of "social consequences". IE, the pro censorship people get named and shamed and fired from their jobs (starting with the most extreme first) Then the pro censorship people would try to fix the problem with laws, ect.
  - chickenfries 9y ago
    Hey if that's what gets you going go for it. I think you'll find that most people will be way less willing to fire an employee for being a nazi than for being pro nazi social consequences. Wonder why that is. Edit: I had it backwards, obviously. I meant to say that most employers would find it much easier to fire a Nazi than someone who thinks Nazi's should be censored...
    - stale2002 9y ago
      Uhh, no. What you do is go after the Anarchists/hard core leftists/communists, who have beliefs that are equivalent to nazi beliefs. IE, the revolutionary leftists who have publicly stated things like "The liberals get the bullet too". Go look up that liberal phrase. It is actually quite common, among leftists. Radical leftist rhetoric is very violent these days, and is an interesting read. It is all about overthrowing the capitalist, imperialist "system", getting rid of civil rights, the "dictatorship of the proletariat", and killing those that are the "enemies" of leftists (which can range anywhere from literal Nazis, to "Trump Supporters",to Capitalists, to "liberals" who just support civil rights). Finding leftists who publicly call for mass murder is really easy. I mean, just look at all the people who publicly supported that guy who shot up a bunch of republican congressmen.
      - chickenfries 9y ago
        Again... it's pretty obvious that being a black block protester or antifa can get you fired. That's the entire point of dressing in black and evading the police. They're perfectly aware that they're taking extra legal measures... > who have beliefs that are equivalent to nazi beliefs That's an interesting equivalence you've drawn there. Which races do they believe in exterminating again? I forgot. > publicly stated Where? > "The liberals get the bullet too". > Go look up that liberal phrase. It is actually quite common, among leftists. Liberals say that liberals get the bullet too? I had never actually heard that phrase before so I googled it. I can't seem to find anything about it from before 2017, so it seems like it got famous due to a piece of graffiti from earlier this year. While I don't doubt that there are people on the far left that say this kind of thing, I think they're pretty fringe and are more bark than bite. In reality these people actually vote for people like Bernie Sanders and Jeremy Corbyn. > Radical leftist rhetoric is very violent these days, and is an interesting read. It is all about overthrowing the capitalist, imperialist "system", getting rid of civil rights, the "dictatorship of the proletariat", and killing those that are the "enemies" of leftists (which can range anywhere from literal Nazis, to "Trump Supporters",to Capitalists, to "liberals" who just support civil rights). No offense, but your exposure to "leftism" seems pretty new and based on social media. Please do share what you're reading though... > Finding leftists who publicly call for mass murder is really easy. I mean, just look at all the people who publicly supported that guy who shot up a bunch of republican congressmen. Do people with their real names do that on twitter (I assume you're talking about twitter)? Or just eggs, like on the far right? What's really concerning to me is that the white nationalists and neo nazis are out without hoods or masks. They are not afraid of having their pictures taken. They think they can be weekend nazis.