7 ms·

You're confusing free speech with the first amendment. Free speech is a cultural value says that controversial speech shouldn't be censored, rather it should be

• mindcrime 9y ago
  The first amendment guarantees the government will uphold this value. More like "The first amendment purports to guarantee that the government will uphold this value."
  • mindcrime 9y ago
    OK, I'm usually the last to complain about downvoting, but this is ridiculous. That our government routinely fails to uphold the principle of free speech is not even remotely a controversial position... so perhaps some of you folks would like to explain what your argument is? Remember, a "first amendment" in and of itself has absolutely zero power to guarantee anything. Our government violates many of the provisions of the Constitution on a daily basis. "Free speech zones" anybody? Warrantless wiretapping? Civil asset forfeiture? Etc, etc., etc. At the end of the day, the old line "the Constitution is just a piece of paper" really is true. It's actually down to us, "We The People" to hold our government accountable and make sure it upholds the principles we value. We can't just abdicate our responsibility and say "Oh, it's in the 1st amendment, so I'm sure they'll do the right thing."
• chickenfries 9y ago
  Free speech, the cultural value, can only be protected by the government. The market doesn't demand things like liberty and justice.
  • stale2002 9y ago
    It can be protected in lots of ways! For example, society can start firing people who make arguments against free speech. We could start banning their accounts on the internet, and refusing to serve them at restaurants. Your freedom to support censorship doesn't mean that you are free from consequences! ;)
    • chickenfries 9y ago
      > For example, society can start firing people who make arguments against free speech. We could start banning their accounts on the internet, and refusing to serve them at restaurants. Yep, and at that point the only recourse you would have would be the government, right? > Your freedom to support censorship doesn't mean that you are free from consequences! ;) Your smugness suggests that you think this is surprising to me, rather than being my entire point. Businesses will do whatever they want, in their own self-interest. If we want them to do something else because we as a society value something like free speech, your options are to ignore it or to pass a law. If you're concerned about CloudFlare's ability to censor the internet, take it up with the government, because CloudFlare's commitment to free speech is good only as long as it makes business sense for them.
      • stale2002 9y ago
        Perhaps we could make a law. But at this point I think that it be better to just have a free market retaliatory war of "social consequences". IE, the pro censorship people get named and shamed and fired from their jobs (starting with the most extreme first) Then the pro censorship people would try to fix the problem with laws, ect.
        • chickenfries 9y ago
          Hey if that's what gets you going go for it. I think you'll find that most people will be way less willing to fire an employee for being a nazi than for being pro nazi social consequences. Wonder why that is. Edit: I had it backwards, obviously. I meant to say that most employers would find it much easier to fire a Nazi than someone who thinks Nazi's should be censored...
• dragonwriter 9y ago
  > Free speech is a cultural value says that controversial speech shouldn't be censored No, free speech (and the related freedoms of press, religion, and association) is a cultural value that says every member of society should be free to choose which ideas they will promote and which people they will associate with, applying their own values. That absolutely includes choosing which ideas from other people they will participate in spreading, which, yes, is censorship (but not public censorship), but remains absolutely central to the ideal of free speech. Freedom of speech is not entitlement to have others cooperate in spreading your speech.
  • jquery 9y ago
    Wow! What's up is down and down is up. I assume you are vehemently on the side those wedding cake bakers who refused to make a gay wedding cake, then? Once a private communications provider becomes recognized as communications infrastructure, they lose the right to police content that goes through their infrastructure. For example, my ISP, even though it participates in "spreading" my ideas, has no say in the matter. If you can argue that some random wedding cake bakers are part of "critical wedding baking infrastructure and must therefore be compelled to make a gay cake," you can argue, much more easily, that Cloudflare has no business deciding what content it offers its services to.
    • dragonwriter 9y ago
      > What's up is down and down is up. I assume you are vehemently on the side those wedding cake bakers who refused to make a gay wedding cake, then? The issue of limited discrimination protections on specified axes for public accommodations is a thorny one especially when it comes to expressive acts; there's plenty of room for debate on what axes should be protected, but a general non-discrimination rule for political ideology has never been seriously suggested, and would arguably run afoul of the first amendment. > If you can argue that some random wedding cake bakers are part of "critical wedding baking infrastructure and must therefore be compelled to make a gay cake," That's not the legal basis; a specific protection from sexual orientation discrimination in public accommodations (in state law in the state in question) is.
    • deleted 9y ago
• awinder 9y ago
  Cool when can I come over to your house and spout crazypants shit?
  • MichaelGG 9y ago
    As soon as his house becomes a major content-neutral platform that you practically need to use to publish online.
• mbillie1 9y ago
  > Free speech is a cultural value I might equally make the point that "not overtly calling for the forcible deportation of non-whites from the US" is a cultural value.