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Matt Levine says it best: "[..] but I have to confess that it seems odd to me to denounce Nazism out of fealty to shareholder value. You can just denounce Nazi

Matt Levine says it best: "[..] but I have to confess that it seems odd to me to denounce Nazism out of fealty to shareholder value. You can just denounce Nazism because you're not a Nazi! This is a financial newsletter, but I have never assumed that the operations of capital are autonomous and self-executing, or that executives are robots who are programmed to maximize shareholder value to the exclusion of all other considerations. Corporations exist in society, and are not above society's concerns. Businesses operate through human beings, who remain human even in their roles as CEOs. One would hope." https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-08-16/ceos-consultants-and-communists https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-08-16/ceos-cons...

fleetwood 9y ago
Matt Levine always says it best
WaxProlix 9y ago
> I have never assumed that the operations of capital are autonomous and self-executing, or that executives are robots who are programmed to maximize shareholder value to the exclusion of all other considerations. But that is how it works, right? If you don't maximize shareholder value you can be ousted, if you don't where others do you will lose in the marketplace and cease to exist. Isn't that competitive ruthlessness exactly what people like about our current system? > Corporations exist in society, and are not above society's concerns. Businesses operate through human beings, who remain human even in their roles as CEOs. One would hope. Citation needed, I guess. For mid-small size companies this might be the case, but evidence seems to point to the opposite of this for any organization large enough to be its own thing outside of the humans and subsystems that comprise its pieces.
- rhizome 9y ago
  But that is how it works, right? If you don't maximize shareholder value you can be ousted Depends on what you mean by "maximize," since "shareholder value" is a matter of opinion. Some might make the case for short-term rises at all costs, while others take a longer view of "value." In between are a lot of experts and self-proclaimed experts.
- ForRealsies 9y ago
  "Corporations are people." And it behooves them to be politically correct at all times.
  - i386 9y ago
    Literal nazis are waking the streets in nation that leads the free world. Save us this "political correctness gone mad" BS.
    - inb4dangshitban 9y ago
      Literal communists are walking the streets with soviet flags and Stalin portraits. Far left and far right is just different sides to the same coin. Save us your "omg nazis"
- gertef 9y ago
  > you don't maximize shareholder value you can be ousted, If shareholders value not collaborating with Nazis, then not collaborating with Nazis generates shareholder value. Shareholders as a group have no need to be less good than themselves individually.
- jaredklewis 9y ago
  > If you don't maximize shareholder value you can be ousted, if you don't where others do you will lose in the marketplace and cease to exist. In theory, there is nothing logically inconsistent about a CEO both advocating for a better society and protecting shareholder value. Indeed, the former can sometimes help achieve the latter. If your country becomes Venezuela, that's not going to do your stock price any favors. In practice, it doesn't matter. For better or worse, it is basically impossible to definitely measure the effectiveness of a CEO. Board members use their best judgement and the limited data they have. You can be ousted whether or not you maximize shareholder value, as no one knows if you did or not. CEOs work for a board and that board can fire them for, in practice, any reason they want to. In turn those board members work for shareholders that can choose them for any reason they want. > Isn't that competitive ruthlessness exactly what people like about our current system? I wouldn't guess so, no. I would guess people more like the effect of said competitiveness, which is an efficient market with lower prices and more stability than the other systems that have been tried. > Citation needed, I guess. Basic reasoning? Corporations are tightly interwoven with society. Their customers and employees are all members of said society, for one thing. Burning society to the ground is not going to work out well for any corporation.
davidreiss 9y ago
Is there a reason for the love that some on HN have for Matt Levine? Seems like every finance related topic brings up matt levine. > Matt Levine says it best: Is that the really best?
- bousaid 9y ago
  I actually just started reading his newsletter a few weeks ago. His writing is akin to the comments you see on Hackernews: insightful, appropriately opinionated, backed up by experience in industry. He also adds a wittiness that makes reading his material a pleasure.
- matt4077 9y ago
  He's both smart and witty. He rarely just states an opinion, but usually concerns himself with subjects where he struggles to believe something with absolute certainty, and instead readily gives the best argument for each side of an argument. He also appears to be a Mensch. In this case, I chose him because his Goldman Sachs credentials make it impossible to dismiss him as some sort of far-left Antifa lunatic, and because he's making a good case for moral responsibility in business. A case that is widely accepted among actual business leadership, but somehow still stymies the HN crowd, where the shareholder-above-anything folklore was absolutely certain to make an appearance.
sn9 9y ago
As an aside, that space blockchain section is 0.30 bitcoin [0]. [0] http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=price+of+gold+in+bitcoin http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=price+of+gold+in+bitcoi...

fleetwood 9y ago

Matt Levine always says it best

WaxProlix 9y ago

> I have never assumed that the operations of capital are autonomous and self-executing, or that executives are robots who are programmed to maximize shareholder value to the exclusion of all other considerations. But that is how it works, right? If you don't maximize shareholder value you can be ousted, if you don't where others do you will lose in the marketplace and cease to exist. Isn't that competitive ruthlessness exactly what people like about our current system? > Corporations exist in society, and are not above society's concerns. Businesses operate through human beings, who remain human even in their roles as CEOs. One would hope. Citation needed, I guess. For mid-small size companies this might be the case, but evidence seems to point to the opposite of this for any organization large enough to be its own thing outside of the humans and subsystems that comprise its pieces.

rhizome 9y ago
But that is how it works, right? If you don't maximize shareholder value you can be ousted Depends on what you mean by "maximize," since "shareholder value" is a matter of opinion. Some might make the case for short-term rises at all costs, while others take a longer view of "value." In between are a lot of experts and self-proclaimed experts.
ForRealsies 9y ago
"Corporations are people." And it behooves them to be politically correct at all times.
- i386 9y ago
  Literal nazis are waking the streets in nation that leads the free world. Save us this "political correctness gone mad" BS.
  - inb4dangshitban 9y ago
    Literal communists are walking the streets with soviet flags and Stalin portraits. Far left and far right is just different sides to the same coin. Save us your "omg nazis"
gertef 9y ago
> you don't maximize shareholder value you can be ousted, If shareholders value not collaborating with Nazis, then not collaborating with Nazis generates shareholder value. Shareholders as a group have no need to be less good than themselves individually.
jaredklewis 9y ago
> If you don't maximize shareholder value you can be ousted, if you don't where others do you will lose in the marketplace and cease to exist. In theory, there is nothing logically inconsistent about a CEO both advocating for a better society and protecting shareholder value. Indeed, the former can sometimes help achieve the latter. If your country becomes Venezuela, that's not going to do your stock price any favors. In practice, it doesn't matter. For better or worse, it is basically impossible to definitely measure the effectiveness of a CEO. Board members use their best judgement and the limited data they have. You can be ousted whether or not you maximize shareholder value, as no one knows if you did or not. CEOs work for a board and that board can fire them for, in practice, any reason they want to. In turn those board members work for shareholders that can choose them for any reason they want. > Isn't that competitive ruthlessness exactly what people like about our current system? I wouldn't guess so, no. I would guess people more like the effect of said competitiveness, which is an efficient market with lower prices and more stability than the other systems that have been tried. > Citation needed, I guess. Basic reasoning? Corporations are tightly interwoven with society. Their customers and employees are all members of said society, for one thing. Burning society to the ground is not going to work out well for any corporation.

davidreiss 9y ago

Is there a reason for the love that some on HN have for Matt Levine? Seems like every finance related topic brings up matt levine. > Matt Levine says it best: Is that the really best?

bousaid 9y ago
I actually just started reading his newsletter a few weeks ago. His writing is akin to the comments you see on Hackernews: insightful, appropriately opinionated, backed up by experience in industry. He also adds a wittiness that makes reading his material a pleasure.
matt4077 9y ago
He's both smart and witty. He rarely just states an opinion, but usually concerns himself with subjects where he struggles to believe something with absolute certainty, and instead readily gives the best argument for each side of an argument. He also appears to be a Mensch. In this case, I chose him because his Goldman Sachs credentials make it impossible to dismiss him as some sort of far-left Antifa lunatic, and because he's making a good case for moral responsibility in business. A case that is widely accepted among actual business leadership, but somehow still stymies the HN crowd, where the shareholder-above-anything folklore was absolutely certain to make an appearance.

sn9 9y ago

As an aside, that space blockchain section is 0.30 bitcoin [0]. [0] http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=price+of+gold+in+bitcoin http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=price+of+gold+in+bitcoi...