5 ms·

Isn't this like saying you're not going to wear a seatbelt, because driving is still unsafe and you don't want to get complacent? I get what you're saying, but

Isn't this like saying you're not going to wear a seatbelt, because driving is still unsafe and you don't want to get complacent? I get what you're saying, but I would want to utilize as many safety precautions as possible, no matter what I'm doing.

dpcx 9y ago
Sort of, but not really. The reason you wear a seatbelt (for the most part) is because of things that are outside of your control: other drivers. In the case of woodworking, there are no other woodworkers that are going to do something stupid. And yes, I know that you also wear a seatbelt to remove potential injury from only you driving (think if you lose control, etc). You do the same in woodworking; you use clamps to prevent things from moving, you use push blocks to keep your hands from the blade, etc.
- proactivesvcs 9y ago
  The article lists someone at the safety hearing who's amputations were the result of something out of his control. Your statements against the seatbelt analogy would suggest that we should all be using this safety mechanism because, for the most part, there are things outside of our control that can seriously injure.
  - dpcx 9y ago
    Sure. There will always be things out of our control in woodworking. Just like seatbelts won't save you in all circumstances. And there are still some people that drive without wearing seatbelts. It really comes down to personal preference (even though driving without a seatbelt on is illegal in many states and countries).
    - analog31 9y ago
      Indeed, and there are cases where I want to be protected from my own inattention, when the stakes are high enough.
      - luckydude 9y ago
        So my argument is wrong but you want to be protected from inattention???? You need to be fully awake when running tools, same goes for driving. They are both defensive activities. Maybe people are beating on me because I didn't say "for me...." but whatever. I stand behind my reasoning, it works for me. And I think the sawstop is just silly. Tablesaws, used properly, are just fine. If you are losing fingers can I introduce you to this magic development called push sticks? My tablesaw rules are simple: - use wood or plastic push sticks to move the material - don't stand behind the work (sawstop still has this problem) - don't reach behind the blade until it is stopped - don't use the fence as a stop for cutoff work (unless it's a unifence and you pulled it back) as taught to me decades ago by my high school shop instructor. A lathe will screw you good, so will a bandsaw (ever freehand work on a bandsaw? Sketchy as heck but useful). A chopsaw can jump the work and come right over your thumb. Shapers, oh, my, the ways that shapers can eat you. If you need what sawstop offers then there is no way I'd let you in my shop. If you like it in your shop, have the big fun, anyone who depended on that is just an accident waiting to happen on the next piece of equipment. What's next? Chainsaw-stop?
        TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
        I work 10 hours days six days a week with power tools and overhead cranes and individual steel work pieces that are guaranteed to kill or serious injury you if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time. Anyway safety feature that can be implemented without getting in my way, or any safety feature that forces me to work more safely is very welcome. Just the other day someone nearly lost their fingers due to inattentiveness.
        oliwarner 9y ago
        > What's next? Chainsaw-stop? They've been default on new chainsaws since the mid 90s. That hand guard at the front is linked to a powerful brake so that if it catches and kicks back, it's very likely to engage that brake and save you a life-altering injury. They have centripetal clutches to disengage automatically and most require two points of contact and a disengaged brake for the throttle to work (common to many outdoor tools). Chainsaws still aren't safe —you'd be an idiot to use one without steel-laced trousers— but they are much safer than they were. As I said in another comment, nobody needs this stuff until it saves their fingers, their hand, their face, their leg and their livelihood. And that's what these arguments come down to. You (and some others here) think you'll never make a mistake or forget to move a hand or misplace their feet, or ever cut too deep in a bit of stock that was cutting fine last week. These are pretty stupid mistakes on their on their own but people aren't robots; they happen all the time. Conversely I'm happy to say that I've been safe so far, but I respect how quickly that can change.
- naasking 9y ago
  > The reason you wear a seatbelt (for the most part) is because of things that are outside of your control: other drivers There are plenty of things outside of your control, even if only you are involved. For instance, you could suddenly have a seizure or an involuntary muscle spasm while using one of your dangerous tools. I frankly don't see any meaningful difference between the seatbelt and power tool scenarios, just a continuous risk gradient.
sjs382 9y ago
I agree that it's a bad analogy, but I understand and agree somewhat with the parent's point. You don't want to go from driving a vehicle where the consequences of a collision is "a $100 part replacement" to driving a vehicle where the cost of a collision is "possible death or serious bodily injury for 1 or more people".

dpcx 9y ago

Sort of, but not really. The reason you wear a seatbelt (for the most part) is because of things that are outside of your control: other drivers. In the case of woodworking, there are no other woodworkers that are going to do something stupid. And yes, I know that you also wear a seatbelt to remove potential injury from only you driving (think if you lose control, etc). You do the same in woodworking; you use clamps to prevent things from moving, you use push blocks to keep your hands from the blade, etc.

proactivesvcs 9y ago
The article lists someone at the safety hearing who's amputations were the result of something out of his control. Your statements against the seatbelt analogy would suggest that we should all be using this safety mechanism because, for the most part, there are things outside of our control that can seriously injure.
- dpcx 9y ago
  Sure. There will always be things out of our control in woodworking. Just like seatbelts won't save you in all circumstances. And there are still some people that drive without wearing seatbelts. It really comes down to personal preference (even though driving without a seatbelt on is illegal in many states and countries).
  - analog31 9y ago
    Indeed, and there are cases where I want to be protected from my own inattention, when the stakes are high enough.
    - luckydude 9y ago
      So my argument is wrong but you want to be protected from inattention???? You need to be fully awake when running tools, same goes for driving. They are both defensive activities. Maybe people are beating on me because I didn't say "for me...." but whatever. I stand behind my reasoning, it works for me. And I think the sawstop is just silly. Tablesaws, used properly, are just fine. If you are losing fingers can I introduce you to this magic development called push sticks? My tablesaw rules are simple: - use wood or plastic push sticks to move the material - don't stand behind the work (sawstop still has this problem) - don't reach behind the blade until it is stopped - don't use the fence as a stop for cutoff work (unless it's a unifence and you pulled it back) as taught to me decades ago by my high school shop instructor. A lathe will screw you good, so will a bandsaw (ever freehand work on a bandsaw? Sketchy as heck but useful). A chopsaw can jump the work and come right over your thumb. Shapers, oh, my, the ways that shapers can eat you. If you need what sawstop offers then there is no way I'd let you in my shop. If you like it in your shop, have the big fun, anyone who depended on that is just an accident waiting to happen on the next piece of equipment. What's next? Chainsaw-stop?
      - TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
        I work 10 hours days six days a week with power tools and overhead cranes and individual steel work pieces that are guaranteed to kill or serious injury you if you're in the wrong place at the wrong time. Anyway safety feature that can be implemented without getting in my way, or any safety feature that forces me to work more safely is very welcome. Just the other day someone nearly lost their fingers due to inattentiveness.
      - oliwarner 9y ago
        > What's next? Chainsaw-stop? They've been default on new chainsaws since the mid 90s. That hand guard at the front is linked to a powerful brake so that if it catches and kicks back, it's very likely to engage that brake and save you a life-altering injury. They have centripetal clutches to disengage automatically and most require two points of contact and a disengaged brake for the throttle to work (common to many outdoor tools). Chainsaws still aren't safe —you'd be an idiot to use one without steel-laced trousers— but they are much safer than they were. As I said in another comment, nobody needs this stuff until it saves their fingers, their hand, their face, their leg and their livelihood. And that's what these arguments come down to. You (and some others here) think you'll never make a mistake or forget to move a hand or misplace their feet, or ever cut too deep in a bit of stock that was cutting fine last week. These are pretty stupid mistakes on their on their own but people aren't robots; they happen all the time. Conversely I'm happy to say that I've been safe so far, but I respect how quickly that can change.
naasking 9y ago
> The reason you wear a seatbelt (for the most part) is because of things that are outside of your control: other drivers There are plenty of things outside of your control, even if only you are involved. For instance, you could suddenly have a seizure or an involuntary muscle spasm while using one of your dangerous tools. I frankly don't see any meaningful difference between the seatbelt and power tool scenarios, just a continuous risk gradient.

sjs382 9y ago

I agree that it's a bad analogy, but I understand and agree somewhat with the parent's point. You don't want to go from driving a vehicle where the consequences of a collision is "a $100 part replacement" to driving a vehicle where the cost of a collision is "possible death or serious bodily injury for 1 or more people".