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"It's why people pad or lie on resumes. Some people do it 'cause they're lazy, but some do it because they believe the end justifies the means. The unfortunate

by rick888 16y ago

"It's why people pad or lie on resumes. Some people do it 'cause they're lazy, but some do it because they believe the end justifies the means. The unfortunate part is that a lot of these students can continue doing this and get a job at a big company because a big company doesn't care so much about actual performance, so as long as you have the credentials." Most big companies don't care about grades either. If you pad your resume with lies, you might be able to slide by some of the time, but it will eventually catch up with you. "Disclaimer: I cheated once on a spelling test in 5th grade, apart from that, I do not remember ever cheating again." I cheated once in elementary school also (I think it was on a history test). But I learned that cheating is wrong and I haven't done it since. "Well, without laws, whoever is still alive at the end of the day has made it." School is a step above the anarchy that was the earth before modern times, not a step below. "For example if a child is told to do task B, but aren't given a satisfactory reason for doing it, then they are highly compelled to cheat, lazy or not, if completion of the task gets them something of understandable value." "Cheating" for some tasks are just another word for getting it done more efficiently. "When students get to college many more of them see this, but still a lot don't understand the full importance of actually learning." Some students don't learn because it's something they just don't want to do. When you have a choice between hanging out with your friends and partying all night and studying for a test/learning something new, the activity that is more "fun" trumps all. When the student that is partying all the time starts failing (IE: bad grades), they will then be forced to either start studying or leave. Without grades, they would just continue partying. I still don't really see your point.

chrischen 16y ago
The point of contention here is that you think cheating will always catch up to you. I'm saying that the world is not so liquid and ideal. Someone cheating, assuming they do it right (and don't over do it), will probably get more than they deserve (in an idea world) before they die, if they did everything 100% by the book. Simple karmic forces (the cause-effect force) dictate that if you cheat constantly, you will increase your chances of being caught and punished. However people don't live forever, so it's highly possible they will get more than they deserve in their lifetime if they cheat. I think if you look at it from afar, you may not notice the inequity caused by cheating. I really can't really say how much cheating impacts society, but I definitely disagree with you on your claim that cheating is always (or at least to a point of insignificancy) caught/punished accordingly.
- rick888 16y ago
  "The point of contention here is that you think cheating will always catch up to you." so taking away grades will get rid of cheating? People that have the cheating mindset will just find some other way to shortcut success. "I'm saying that the world is not so liquid and ideal. Someone cheating, assuming they do it right (and don't over do it), will probably get more than they deserve (in an idea world) before they die, if they did everything 100% by the book. Simple karmic forces (the cause-effect force) dictate that if you cheat constantly, you will increase your chances of being caught and punished. However people don't live forever, so it's highly possible they will get more than they deserve in their lifetime if they cheat." This is true, but there is usually more effort (or just as much) with cheating than doing it right. It's also not a long-term solution. As an example, I go to the blackhatseo forum from time to time. The people there do anything they possibly can to cheat people out of money and game as many systems as they can. What I've noticed is that most people get caught (and kicked out of wherever they were trying to make money) or their reputation gets tarnished every couple of months and they need to start over. If they just put that same effort into a legitimate business, they could slowly build a client base over time and if it's successful (which has just as much of a chance as the illegitimate methods), they won't have to hide or move every few months. Cheaters, like these people are only focusing on short-term gains..which is foolish. Will they get ahead or make money? To some degree, yes, but it will almost always catch up with them. "I think if you look at it from afar, you may not notice the inequity caused by cheating. I really can't really say how much cheating impacts society, but I definitely disagree with you on your claim that cheating is always (or at least to a point of insignificancy) caught/punished accordingly." It seems like this is a personal issue for you. Is there someone ahead of you at work that you feel shouldn't be there because they cheated? I'm looking at it closely, and I still really don't see all of these cheaters you are talking about. Do you have some examples?
  - chrischen 16y ago
    You're right, cheating is not something to live by as an absolute philosophy. But no doubt people lie or cheat often and many may get away with it. > I'm looking at it closely, and I still really don't see all of these cheaters you are talking about. Do you have some examples? Nope. In fact, I don't even have anecdotal evidence. But my belief is that many people will get away with one or two instances of cheating here and there. Sure cheating will catch up to people, but it does so slowly (unless you constantly cheat). Not everyone does it because they are sociopathic. Some people do it because they think the end justifies the means. And because I think a lot of people believe (or at least tolerate it) in that mantra, I think a lot of them will justify cheating to get ahead slightly (perhaps to get what they think they deserve). Plus, I'm hearing all the time about how kids at MIT and what not cheat. Do I think they will get screwed in life for doing it once in a while? No, because they probably don't believe it's a good way of life. Do I care? No. Why do I not care? Well I'd only care if I can prove that someone's cheating directly adversely affected me. Otherwise, they can do whatever they want and the natural forces of cause and effect will balance it all out. That is, if it affects someone else directly, it's up to them to decide to care or not. But I absolutely agree with you that constant cheating is not sustainable. In fact, in general, any actions which might piss other people off is not sustainable and takes more effort to maintain. But I think there's a lot of people doing occasional cheating/lying, mainly justified because they believe the end justifies the means. And these instances of cheating and lying may not in the end matter because "catching up" takes a long time, or because whatever they did just happened to be practically justified by the end result. I personally don't believe in the end justifying the means, which is why I refuse to cheat or lie. If I can't get good grades then either something is wrong with the education system or I'm retarded. I'd rather believe the former. But the last thing I'd do is to pretend there is not problem with the education system (hypothetically speaking).

by rick888 16y ago

chrischen 16y ago

The point of contention here is that you think cheating will always catch up to you. I'm saying that the world is not so liquid and ideal. Someone cheating, assuming they do it right (and don't over do it), will probably get more than they deserve (in an idea world) before they die, if they did everything 100% by the book. Simple karmic forces (the cause-effect force) dictate that if you cheat constantly, you will increase your chances of being caught and punished. However people don't live forever, so it's highly possible they will get more than they deserve in their lifetime if they cheat. I think if you look at it from afar, you may not notice the inequity caused by cheating. I really can't really say how much cheating impacts society, but I definitely disagree with you on your claim that cheating is always (or at least to a point of insignificancy) caught/punished accordingly.

rick888 16y ago
"The point of contention here is that you think cheating will always catch up to you." so taking away grades will get rid of cheating? People that have the cheating mindset will just find some other way to shortcut success. "I'm saying that the world is not so liquid and ideal. Someone cheating, assuming they do it right (and don't over do it), will probably get more than they deserve (in an idea world) before they die, if they did everything 100% by the book. Simple karmic forces (the cause-effect force) dictate that if you cheat constantly, you will increase your chances of being caught and punished. However people don't live forever, so it's highly possible they will get more than they deserve in their lifetime if they cheat." This is true, but there is usually more effort (or just as much) with cheating than doing it right. It's also not a long-term solution. As an example, I go to the blackhatseo forum from time to time. The people there do anything they possibly can to cheat people out of money and game as many systems as they can. What I've noticed is that most people get caught (and kicked out of wherever they were trying to make money) or their reputation gets tarnished every couple of months and they need to start over. If they just put that same effort into a legitimate business, they could slowly build a client base over time and if it's successful (which has just as much of a chance as the illegitimate methods), they won't have to hide or move every few months. Cheaters, like these people are only focusing on short-term gains..which is foolish. Will they get ahead or make money? To some degree, yes, but it will almost always catch up with them. "I think if you look at it from afar, you may not notice the inequity caused by cheating. I really can't really say how much cheating impacts society, but I definitely disagree with you on your claim that cheating is always (or at least to a point of insignificancy) caught/punished accordingly." It seems like this is a personal issue for you. Is there someone ahead of you at work that you feel shouldn't be there because they cheated? I'm looking at it closely, and I still really don't see all of these cheaters you are talking about. Do you have some examples?
- chrischen 16y ago
  You're right, cheating is not something to live by as an absolute philosophy. But no doubt people lie or cheat often and many may get away with it. > I'm looking at it closely, and I still really don't see all of these cheaters you are talking about. Do you have some examples? Nope. In fact, I don't even have anecdotal evidence. But my belief is that many people will get away with one or two instances of cheating here and there. Sure cheating will catch up to people, but it does so slowly (unless you constantly cheat). Not everyone does it because they are sociopathic. Some people do it because they think the end justifies the means. And because I think a lot of people believe (or at least tolerate it) in that mantra, I think a lot of them will justify cheating to get ahead slightly (perhaps to get what they think they deserve). Plus, I'm hearing all the time about how kids at MIT and what not cheat. Do I think they will get screwed in life for doing it once in a while? No, because they probably don't believe it's a good way of life. Do I care? No. Why do I not care? Well I'd only care if I can prove that someone's cheating directly adversely affected me. Otherwise, they can do whatever they want and the natural forces of cause and effect will balance it all out. That is, if it affects someone else directly, it's up to them to decide to care or not. But I absolutely agree with you that constant cheating is not sustainable. In fact, in general, any actions which might piss other people off is not sustainable and takes more effort to maintain. But I think there's a lot of people doing occasional cheating/lying, mainly justified because they believe the end justifies the means. And these instances of cheating and lying may not in the end matter because "catching up" takes a long time, or because whatever they did just happened to be practically justified by the end result. I personally don't believe in the end justifying the means, which is why I refuse to cheat or lie. If I can't get good grades then either something is wrong with the education system or I'm retarded. I'd rather believe the former. But the last thing I'd do is to pretend there is not problem with the education system (hypothetically speaking).