5 ms·

Table saws aren't in the same class as cars. Table saws are mostly used by competent people and the injury rate is pretty low. When an accident does happen it

Table saws aren't in the same class as cars. Table saws are mostly used by competent people and the injury rate is pretty low. When an accident does happen it only involves a single person and usually requires a few stitches. The cost savings of avoiding a few thousand people needing stitches is not even close to the cost of "modernizing the table saw fleet.". Plus, saws already come with a plethora of safety features (anti-kickback pawls, blade guards, and riving knives), and most serious woodworkers take the safety features off. In a rational society we would let people make their own choices. We can raise insurance raise rates on people who act dangerously, and disallow frivolous lawsuits from people that circumvent existing safety features. There is no need for the government to regulate table saws that only risk the individual using it.

toomuchtodo 9y ago
> Table saws are mostly used by competent people and the injury rate is pretty low. When an accident does happen it only involves a single person and usually requires a few stitches. 4000 people a year suffer from being mangled by a table saw. That's losing digits or an appendage (their entire hand). (NPR had a story about this a week or two ago) EDIT: Let's say, conservatively, each accident on average costs $100K in medical costs, disability, etc. That's $400 million/year in costs. Just a hunch, but adding the safety break seems like a clear win. I suppose that's a perverse benefit of healthcare being so broken in America; its so expensive, its usually cheaper to fix the problem then to dump it on the healthcare system as an externality.
- jasode 9y ago
  >Just a hunch, but adding the safety break seems like a clear win. Human behavior is counterintuitive and maybe the situation would be worse. See excerpt: >Data supplied by SawStop concerning the number of table saw units sold and the number of reported blade contact incidences, proves that operators are nearly five times more likely to contact the saw blade of a SawStop saw as opposed to the operator of a conventional table saw. Logic dictates that this increase in accident rate on SawStop saws is due primarily to a user’s decision to use the blade guard less frequently due to a “sense of security” in having the SawStop flesh-sensing technology on the saw. [1] The analysis above may be flawed and/or come from a self-serving biased source. Either way, it's similar to the famous thought experiment about seat belts in cars: Volvo's generosity in giving the world seat belts without patent encumbrances didn't make the world "safer". Instead, if governments mandated a sharp iron spike in the steering wheel pointing just a few centimeters short of every driver's heart, that would actually make us safer than seatbelts.[2] It may have been tongue-in-cheek but it may also be true. In my case when I researched saws, I seriously looked at SawStop and valued its flesh detection safety but ultimately preferred a European style sliding saw[3] that doesn't have the flesh detector. In my opinion, a sliding saw without the blade stop is "safer" overall than a SawStop. Of course, it would be nice if all saws had SawStop technology but if I had to choose among tradeoffs, I'd go with the sliding saw. The drawback is that it's more expensive. Where there SawStop technology is more non-negotiable is the portable jobsite saw. A contractor can't transport the giant footprint of a sliding saw into a truck and then into a customer's house remodeling jobsite. Therefore, you want a portable saw with all the safety features possible. [1] http://www.powertoolinstitute.com/pti-pages/it-table-saw-facts.asp http://www.powertoolinstitute.com/pti-pages/it-table-saw-fac... [2] http://stuartbuck.blogspot.com/2008/08/spikes-and-steering-wheels.html http://stuartbuck.blogspot.com/2008/08/spikes-and-steering-w... [3] https://www.google.com/search?q=european+sliding+saw&source=lnms&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=european+sliding+saw&source=...
  - rainforest 9y ago
    Forgive my lack of knowledge, but what's the difference between a European sliding saw and a table saw with a sled?
    - jasode 9y ago
      In the video[1], you can see the operator walking with the sled to rip a large panel. A cross cut sled on a traditional Powermatic/Delta/SawStop doesn't have the same capacity and the operator ends up standing in front of the saw and bending his hip to push the sled into the blade. The geometry of motion is different. With a sliding saw, you're mostly out of the line of fire of kickbacks. (The saw in the video is $40k but you can get used sliding saws for $5k which is about the price of a brand new SawStop Industrial saw.) [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVYUss6pJqQ&feature=youtu.be&t=4m40s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVYUss6pJqQ&feature=youtu.be...
      - spathi_fwiffo 9y ago
        Seems good for a commercial application or a large volume hobbyist. Actually, not too different from what they seem to use at the hardware store for their cuts. But, what about the small scale home hobbyist that can't dedicate a huge space to their table saw (and has a budget under $1k).
        jasode 9y ago
        >Actually, not too different from what they seem to use at the hardware store for their cuts. At the hardware stores I visit like Lowes & Home Depot, I see vertical panel saws which is a different beast: https://www.google.com/search?q=powermatic+panel+saw&source=lnms&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=powermatic+panel+saw&source=... The blade moves on tracks and the wood is stationary for cross cuts. Euro-style sliding table saw is the opposite of that. For rip cuts, yes, the operator locks down the saw position and then pushes the wood through the blade. The issue with the vertical panel saw is that the top half of the rip cut wants to close the gap and bind the blade because of gravity. The horizontal surface of the the Euro slider doesn't have that issue. >But, what about the small scale home hobbyist that can't dedicate a huge space to their table saw (and has a budget under $1k). I would say make a stretch and pay $299 more to get the cheapest SawStop which is the $1299 portable jobsite saw: https://www.google.com/shopping/product/11697127655919696780 https://www.google.com/shopping/product/11697127655919696780
- randallsquared 9y ago
  > NPR had a story about this a week or two ago ...this is that story.

toomuchtodo 9y ago

> Table saws are mostly used by competent people and the injury rate is pretty low. When an accident does happen it only involves a single person and usually requires a few stitches. 4000 people a year suffer from being mangled by a table saw. That's losing digits or an appendage (their entire hand). (NPR had a story about this a week or two ago) EDIT: Let's say, conservatively, each accident on average costs $100K in medical costs, disability, etc. That's $400 million/year in costs. Just a hunch, but adding the safety break seems like a clear win. I suppose that's a perverse benefit of healthcare being so broken in America; its so expensive, its usually cheaper to fix the problem then to dump it on the healthcare system as an externality.

jasode 9y ago
>Just a hunch, but adding the safety break seems like a clear win. Human behavior is counterintuitive and maybe the situation would be worse. See excerpt: >Data supplied by SawStop concerning the number of table saw units sold and the number of reported blade contact incidences, proves that operators are nearly five times more likely to contact the saw blade of a SawStop saw as opposed to the operator of a conventional table saw. Logic dictates that this increase in accident rate on SawStop saws is due primarily to a user’s decision to use the blade guard less frequently due to a “sense of security” in having the SawStop flesh-sensing technology on the saw. [1] The analysis above may be flawed and/or come from a self-serving biased source. Either way, it's similar to the famous thought experiment about seat belts in cars: Volvo's generosity in giving the world seat belts without patent encumbrances didn't make the world "safer". Instead, if governments mandated a sharp iron spike in the steering wheel pointing just a few centimeters short of every driver's heart, that would actually make us safer than seatbelts.[2] It may have been tongue-in-cheek but it may also be true. In my case when I researched saws, I seriously looked at SawStop and valued its flesh detection safety but ultimately preferred a European style sliding saw[3] that doesn't have the flesh detector. In my opinion, a sliding saw without the blade stop is "safer" overall than a SawStop. Of course, it would be nice if all saws had SawStop technology but if I had to choose among tradeoffs, I'd go with the sliding saw. The drawback is that it's more expensive. Where there SawStop technology is more non-negotiable is the portable jobsite saw. A contractor can't transport the giant footprint of a sliding saw into a truck and then into a customer's house remodeling jobsite. Therefore, you want a portable saw with all the safety features possible. [1] http://www.powertoolinstitute.com/pti-pages/it-table-saw-facts.asp http://www.powertoolinstitute.com/pti-pages/it-table-saw-fac... [2] http://stuartbuck.blogspot.com/2008/08/spikes-and-steering-wheels.html http://stuartbuck.blogspot.com/2008/08/spikes-and-steering-w... [3] https://www.google.com/search?q=european+sliding+saw&source=lnms&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=european+sliding+saw&source=...
- rainforest 9y ago
  Forgive my lack of knowledge, but what's the difference between a European sliding saw and a table saw with a sled?
  - jasode 9y ago
    In the video[1], you can see the operator walking with the sled to rip a large panel. A cross cut sled on a traditional Powermatic/Delta/SawStop doesn't have the same capacity and the operator ends up standing in front of the saw and bending his hip to push the sled into the blade. The geometry of motion is different. With a sliding saw, you're mostly out of the line of fire of kickbacks. (The saw in the video is $40k but you can get used sliding saws for $5k which is about the price of a brand new SawStop Industrial saw.) [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVYUss6pJqQ&feature=youtu.be&t=4m40s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVYUss6pJqQ&feature=youtu.be...
    - spathi_fwiffo 9y ago
      Seems good for a commercial application or a large volume hobbyist. Actually, not too different from what they seem to use at the hardware store for their cuts. But, what about the small scale home hobbyist that can't dedicate a huge space to their table saw (and has a budget under $1k).
      - jasode 9y ago
        >Actually, not too different from what they seem to use at the hardware store for their cuts. At the hardware stores I visit like Lowes & Home Depot, I see vertical panel saws which is a different beast: https://www.google.com/search?q=powermatic+panel+saw&source=lnms&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=powermatic+panel+saw&source=... The blade moves on tracks and the wood is stationary for cross cuts. Euro-style sliding table saw is the opposite of that. For rip cuts, yes, the operator locks down the saw position and then pushes the wood through the blade. The issue with the vertical panel saw is that the top half of the rip cut wants to close the gap and bind the blade because of gravity. The horizontal surface of the the Euro slider doesn't have that issue. >But, what about the small scale home hobbyist that can't dedicate a huge space to their table saw (and has a budget under $1k). I would say make a stretch and pay $299 more to get the cheapest SawStop which is the $1299 portable jobsite saw: https://www.google.com/shopping/product/11697127655919696780 https://www.google.com/shopping/product/11697127655919696780
randallsquared 9y ago
> NPR had a story about this a week or two ago ...this is that story.