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As a longtime female engineer at fintech startups, there was absolutely nothing new in Damore's memo. The only thing that gave these tired arguments any cachet

As a longtime female engineer at fintech startups, there was absolutely nothing new in Damore's memo. The only thing that gave these tired arguments any cachet at all was Google's name. And I really wish Google hadn't fired Damore. Special projects exists?! For years I have worked with and continue to work with guys who think just like this. In fact, thanks to Twitter, I now know all of my followers who also follow Damore. Thanks for that? When I interview you and ask you a technical question, you don't meet my eyes and then you answer the guy sitting next to me. When I present my own ideas in a group, you ignore them; fine, I'll pregame males colleages and let them present my ideas instead. If I brainstorm as part of the group, you think I'm asking you to explain basic programming concepts to me. You probably think I'm not that smart. And that's OK. Good news: getting things done requires multiple skills. One of mine is overtaking you from behind. Nobody ever thinks of promoting me first. Whatever I get, I work twice as hard and twice as long for it as you did. The existence of a female networking group does not represent an unfair advantage: it represents barely any advantage at all, on the basis of the ones I've attended. And anyway, I don't have time for that, I'm trying to figure out what's caused the unexplained performance reversion over the past two days. Whether you think I am a diversity candidate or not, I am here to code. That is all. Statistically speaking, biology does give me one edge: longer life span. I'll imagine I will still be here doing just that long after everyone else has forgot James Damore exists. ;)

abvdasker 9y ago
Thanks for this. These comments are a wasteland.
zaroth 9y ago
Everything you said that's wrong with the interactions you have with male engineers, I'm not sure that James Damore would disagree with any of it, or claim that it doesn't happen, or say that we shouldn't be trying hard to change it. What James argued is that the efforts Google is making and the way they are doing it are in some ways contributing to and making all of those bad experiences you listed worse.
- PrimHelios 9y ago
  James also argued that women are biologically inferior for STEM fields, which is objectively and demonstrably incorrect. With that, I think he'd disagree with absolutely all of it. He clearly has a confirmation bias, and is actively cherry picking articles (from fucking Wikipedia I might add) and misrepresenting their contents to make women seem inferior.
  - Cogito 9y ago
    I keep hearing people say this but didn't read it in the memo. Can you point to the bit where he says they are biologically inferior, or the sources he links to that say it? The best I can come up with is the bit where he says Google lowers the bar by reducing the false-negative rate, meaning that a greater percentage of qualified men are rejected than qualified women. [Edit] Reading through again to see more about biology claims in the memo, this is the one that sticks out the most: I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership. This sticks out because it mentions abilities - and is indeed the only place where ability is mentioned at all. The wording doesn't say that women are "biologically inferior for STEM fields", but I can see how it might be read that way. I don't read it that way, but I can understand how others might. The surrounding context is pretty much all about the preferences that people have as well, so "women are biologically inferior" doesn't seem like a point that is trying to be made at all.
    - wilde 9y ago
      I think it comes back to how you read this part of the TL;DR. "Differences in distributions of traits between men and women may in part explain why we don't have 50% representation of women in tech and leadership." Google currently has an 80M/20F split. Does that mean that very few women have the traits to work in CS at Google? If so, another way to phrase that might be "the large majority of women do not possess the innate biological traits necessary to work in CS at Google". From which it's not a far leap to "the large majority of women are biologically inferior for CS work at Google." Etc. Normally, one might soften that by asking what population the distribution is drawn from. Sadly, the memo author makes it explicitly clear that he thinks it's largely due to biology: "Be open about the science of human nature. Once we acknowledge that not all differences are socially constructed or due to discrimination, we open our eyes to a more accurate view of the human condition which is necessary if we actually want to solve problems."
arkh 9y ago
"When I present my own ideas in a group, you ignore them" I've seen a lot of young or shy or not well spoken men get the same treatment. But - here is where I'll assume a lot about you - seeing what other people especially different people endure requires empathy and being a little less self-centered. "Statistically speaking, biology does give me one edge: longer life span." I would not be sure it is biology. I'd like to see the stats 50 years from now when people who bailed on the "sole breadwinner of the family" track are in. Gender roles are also disappearing for men. Slower but they're waking up to new opportunities this give them.
mcfunk 9y ago
When I give feedback on something important in the technology, I have to repeat myself, repeat myself, wait a week while you "think about it," and then finally have a male co-worker go over it with you so you can, in a 5 minutes' conversation, decide you agree ... Thanks for posting this.
- foobar_femme 9y ago
  Honestly, I found the best way round this was to use IM or now Slack to pre-game my male colleagues one-on-one to create a "cloud of agreement". Typing helps! It really is the most neutral way to present. That way, one of them usually presents my ideas himself, or all I have to do is provide the seed and the whole idea crystallizes. If you have any experience with the Socratic method, it's highly useful for convincing your less woke male colleagues they thought of it themselves while allowing them the pleasurable coup of answering your questions in front of others. Think of it as being a midwife to thought: a grubby job but try to think of the lovely babies... The downside of this is it takes your managers a lot longer to figure out that you are an original thinker. The upside to me is that it's more important to see my ideas executed than to wring my hands over the details of how they gained consensus.
hippich 9y ago
I am male engineer and I often get same treatment. I consider myself quite experienced, often more experienced than people getting preference. What I lack often is ability (and willingness nowaday) to prove myself in the eyes of others. Solution to that - side projects, businesses (which are still being dismissed by majority of people I know,) etc. If anything - it made me more resilient (but also pissed off often :))

abvdasker 9y ago

Thanks for this. These comments are a wasteland.

zaroth 9y ago

Everything you said that's wrong with the interactions you have with male engineers, I'm not sure that James Damore would disagree with any of it, or claim that it doesn't happen, or say that we shouldn't be trying hard to change it. What James argued is that the efforts Google is making and the way they are doing it are in some ways contributing to and making all of those bad experiences you listed worse.

PrimHelios 9y ago
James also argued that women are biologically inferior for STEM fields, which is objectively and demonstrably incorrect. With that, I think he'd disagree with absolutely all of it. He clearly has a confirmation bias, and is actively cherry picking articles (from fucking Wikipedia I might add) and misrepresenting their contents to make women seem inferior.
- Cogito 9y ago
  I keep hearing people say this but didn't read it in the memo. Can you point to the bit where he says they are biologically inferior, or the sources he links to that say it? The best I can come up with is the bit where he says Google lowers the bar by reducing the false-negative rate, meaning that a greater percentage of qualified men are rejected than qualified women. [Edit] Reading through again to see more about biology claims in the memo, this is the one that sticks out the most: I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership. This sticks out because it mentions abilities - and is indeed the only place where ability is mentioned at all. The wording doesn't say that women are "biologically inferior for STEM fields", but I can see how it might be read that way. I don't read it that way, but I can understand how others might. The surrounding context is pretty much all about the preferences that people have as well, so "women are biologically inferior" doesn't seem like a point that is trying to be made at all.
  - wilde 9y ago
    I think it comes back to how you read this part of the TL;DR. "Differences in distributions of traits between men and women may in part explain why we don't have 50% representation of women in tech and leadership." Google currently has an 80M/20F split. Does that mean that very few women have the traits to work in CS at Google? If so, another way to phrase that might be "the large majority of women do not possess the innate biological traits necessary to work in CS at Google". From which it's not a far leap to "the large majority of women are biologically inferior for CS work at Google." Etc. Normally, one might soften that by asking what population the distribution is drawn from. Sadly, the memo author makes it explicitly clear that he thinks it's largely due to biology: "Be open about the science of human nature. Once we acknowledge that not all differences are socially constructed or due to discrimination, we open our eyes to a more accurate view of the human condition which is necessary if we actually want to solve problems."

arkh 9y ago

"When I present my own ideas in a group, you ignore them" I've seen a lot of young or shy or not well spoken men get the same treatment. But - here is where I'll assume a lot about you - seeing what other people especially different people endure requires empathy and being a little less self-centered. "Statistically speaking, biology does give me one edge: longer life span." I would not be sure it is biology. I'd like to see the stats 50 years from now when people who bailed on the "sole breadwinner of the family" track are in. Gender roles are also disappearing for men. Slower but they're waking up to new opportunities this give them.

mcfunk 9y ago

When I give feedback on something important in the technology, I have to repeat myself, repeat myself, wait a week while you "think about it," and then finally have a male co-worker go over it with you so you can, in a 5 minutes' conversation, decide you agree ... Thanks for posting this.

foobar_femme 9y ago
Honestly, I found the best way round this was to use IM or now Slack to pre-game my male colleagues one-on-one to create a "cloud of agreement". Typing helps! It really is the most neutral way to present. That way, one of them usually presents my ideas himself, or all I have to do is provide the seed and the whole idea crystallizes. If you have any experience with the Socratic method, it's highly useful for convincing your less woke male colleagues they thought of it themselves while allowing them the pleasurable coup of answering your questions in front of others. Think of it as being a midwife to thought: a grubby job but try to think of the lovely babies... The downside of this is it takes your managers a lot longer to figure out that you are an original thinker. The upside to me is that it's more important to see my ideas executed than to wring my hands over the details of how they gained consensus.

hippich 9y ago

I am male engineer and I often get same treatment. I consider myself quite experienced, often more experienced than people getting preference. What I lack often is ability (and willingness nowaday) to prove myself in the eyes of others. Solution to that - side projects, businesses (which are still being dismissed by majority of people I know,) etc. If anything - it made me more resilient (but also pissed off often :))