6 ms·

Right on the nose. And in fact, the proportion of women in computer science was tracking with other sciences until the mid-eighties, when it started to dive, wh

by mcfunk 9y ago

Right on the nose. And in fact, the proportion of women in computer science was tracking with other sciences until the mid-eighties, when it started to dive, while women's representation in other sciences continued to climb. One of the more glaringly inconsistent observations with Damore's claims. http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-women-stopped-coding http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-...

mpweiher 9y ago
Except that CS isn't a science, it's engineering. And it tracked down to the level of other engineering fields. http://news.janegoodall.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/percent-bachelors-degrees-women-usa.png http://news.janegoodall.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/perce... So the mystery is not why it went down, it was why it was higher initially.
- pishpash 9y ago
  You explained it yourself. It was initially a science, and in the 80's it became engineering and now, a get-rich scheme. Each era attracts a different set of people.
- izacus 9y ago
  Hmm, Computer Science is most definetly a science (which shares quite a bit with maths as expected). A lot of algorithms and data structures you use under the hood when doing engineering were born as a paper in academic CS sphere. Of course, most CS graduates don't do science, but actual engineering work. That doesn't make CS any less of a science though, it just means that most people employed in private companies don't do it.
  - hellopier 9y ago
    And thus employment of CS graduates should be compared with employment of Engineering graduates, except in the case of Academia, where it ought to be compared with other sciences.
  - mpweiher 9y ago
    My bad, I should have been more precise: natural science, which is part of a "liberal arts" education. "Academic areas that are associated with the term liberal arts include: Arts (fine arts, music, performing arts, literature) Mathematics Natural science (biology, chemistry, physics, astronomy, earth science) Philosophy Religious studies Social science (anthropology, economics, geography, political science, psychology, sociology, Linguistics, history)" Note the absence of engineering disciplines. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_arts_education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_arts_education Vs. engineering or engineering sciences. See for example how Stanford groups things (CS is part of the "School of Engineering"). https://registrar.stanford.edu/everyone/enrollment-statistics/enrollment-statistics-2015-16/school-engineering-enrollment-2015-16 https://registrar.stanford.edu/everyone/enrollment-statistic... And then note the difference in enrollment in "chemistry" (the science) and "chemical engineering" https://www.acs.org/content/dam/acsorg/membership/acs/welcoming/diversity/diversity-data.pdf https://www.acs.org/content/dam/acsorg/membership/acs/welcom...
    - izacus 9y ago
      Is the difference you're trying to paint perhaps a US only thing? I've never heard of this type of differentiation.
      - mpweiher 9y ago
        The exact delineation of "liberal arts" seems to be a US thing (not sure about "only"). However, in Germany we also have "Naturwissenschaften" and "Ingenieurwissenschaften". https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingenieurwissenschaften https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingenieurwissenschaften https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturwissenschaft https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturwissenschaft So it's a common distinction: figuring out how nature works vs building stuff.

by mcfunk 9y ago

mpweiher 9y ago

Except that CS isn't a science, it's engineering. And it tracked down to the level of other engineering fields. http://news.janegoodall.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/percent-bachelors-degrees-women-usa.png http://news.janegoodall.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/perce... So the mystery is not why it went down, it was why it was higher initially.

pishpash 9y ago
You explained it yourself. It was initially a science, and in the 80's it became engineering and now, a get-rich scheme. Each era attracts a different set of people.
izacus 9y ago
Hmm, Computer Science is most definetly a science (which shares quite a bit with maths as expected). A lot of algorithms and data structures you use under the hood when doing engineering were born as a paper in academic CS sphere. Of course, most CS graduates don't do science, but actual engineering work. That doesn't make CS any less of a science though, it just means that most people employed in private companies don't do it.
- hellopier 9y ago
  And thus employment of CS graduates should be compared with employment of Engineering graduates, except in the case of Academia, where it ought to be compared with other sciences.
- mpweiher 9y ago
  My bad, I should have been more precise: natural science, which is part of a "liberal arts" education. "Academic areas that are associated with the term liberal arts include: Arts (fine arts, music, performing arts, literature) Mathematics Natural science (biology, chemistry, physics, astronomy, earth science) Philosophy Religious studies Social science (anthropology, economics, geography, political science, psychology, sociology, Linguistics, history)" Note the absence of engineering disciplines. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_arts_education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_arts_education Vs. engineering or engineering sciences. See for example how Stanford groups things (CS is part of the "School of Engineering"). https://registrar.stanford.edu/everyone/enrollment-statistics/enrollment-statistics-2015-16/school-engineering-enrollment-2015-16 https://registrar.stanford.edu/everyone/enrollment-statistic... And then note the difference in enrollment in "chemistry" (the science) and "chemical engineering" https://www.acs.org/content/dam/acsorg/membership/acs/welcoming/diversity/diversity-data.pdf https://www.acs.org/content/dam/acsorg/membership/acs/welcom...
  - izacus 9y ago
    Is the difference you're trying to paint perhaps a US only thing? I've never heard of this type of differentiation.
    - mpweiher 9y ago
      The exact delineation of "liberal arts" seems to be a US thing (not sure about "only"). However, in Germany we also have "Naturwissenschaften" and "Ingenieurwissenschaften". https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingenieurwissenschaften https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingenieurwissenschaften https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturwissenschaft https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturwissenschaft So it's a common distinction: figuring out how nature works vs building stuff.