3 ms·

"Students cheat because the institution doesn't tell them to learn. Institutions tell them to get high grades. And students, being cunning smartasses they are,

by rick888 16y ago

"Students cheat because the institution doesn't tell them to learn. Institutions tell them to get high grades. And students, being cunning smartasses they are, say "fine, I will get high grades," and thus they proceed to cheat because it is the easier way to get high grades and/or pass tests." Those students are lazy and they will most likely bring that laziness to their job. Yes, it's easy to just cheat and get good grades, but the grades are supposed to be the result of your hard work. I know people in high school that loved to cheat and find the easiest way to pass whatever test they were taking. 10 years later, many of them have low-paying factory jobs and are still living with mom and dad. If I hacked into my school's computer system and gave myself all A's, it doesn't make me any smarter in Calculus (one of the subjects where I changed my grade). You could go out and buy a trophy that says that you made MVP of your softball league, but isn't the point to earn it? Students being smartasses only proves that humans will take the past of least resistance. "If instead schools simply said you're here to learn, and God (aka the natural laws of the universe which are unbreakable) will determine whether or not you "pass" in life, then no one would cheat (or can cheat, for that matter)." That's like saying: If we stop arresting people, we won't have any more criminals. How are we going to judge people on how much they have learned if not on concepts and material from their lessons?

chrischen 16y ago
> That's like saying: If we stop arresting people, we won't have any more criminals. It's actually more like saying we should take away all laws. > How are we going to judge people on how much they have learned if not on concepts and material from their lessons? Well, without laws, whoever is still alive at the end of the day has made it. > Those students are lazy and they will most likely bring that laziness to their job. I think it's naive to think all the people who cheat all get what they deserve. I honestly can't say what % of them do get what they deserve, but I'm sure it's not all of them. Yes, given time = infinity, they will all get what they deserve. It's also an uphill battle to not get what you deserve and cheat, but I think a lot of people can get away with cheating before they die. And also it does not mean they are lazy. It simply means they are more practical. For example if a child is told to do task B, but aren't given a satisfactory reason for doing it, then they are highly compelled to cheat, lazy or not, if completion of the task gets them something of understandable value. > If I hacked into my school's computer system and gave myself all A's, it doesn't make me any smarter in Calculus (one of the subjects where I changed my grade). Why would you do this? I'm guessing you would do this if A's could get you a better job right/more opportunities? So getting the As has understandable value to you. So that means you have two possible opinions regarding the actual learning part: 1 - You do not understand why you have to learn it, so the least path of resistance for you is to cheat (You're not necessarily lazy, you just don't want to do unnecessary work), 2 - You understand the value of the learning but you're a lazy and you just try to cheat to get the grades for free. > You could go out and buy a trophy that says that you made MVP of your softball league, but isn't the point to earn it? The point is to earn it, but lots of students don't immediately see that point. They're just told that you have to do learn this and that it will one day be important. When students get to college many more of them see this, but still a lot don't understand the full importance of actually learning. It's why people pad or lie on resumes. Some people do it 'cause they're lazy, but some do it because they believe the end justifies the means. The unfortunate part is that a lot of these students can continue doing this and get a job at a big company because a big company doesn't care so much about actual performance, so as long as you have the credentials. Disclaimer: I cheated once on a spelling test in 5th grade, apart from that, I do not remember ever cheating again.
- rick888 16y ago
  "It's why people pad or lie on resumes. Some people do it 'cause they're lazy, but some do it because they believe the end justifies the means. The unfortunate part is that a lot of these students can continue doing this and get a job at a big company because a big company doesn't care so much about actual performance, so as long as you have the credentials." Most big companies don't care about grades either. If you pad your resume with lies, you might be able to slide by some of the time, but it will eventually catch up with you. "Disclaimer: I cheated once on a spelling test in 5th grade, apart from that, I do not remember ever cheating again." I cheated once in elementary school also (I think it was on a history test). But I learned that cheating is wrong and I haven't done it since. "Well, without laws, whoever is still alive at the end of the day has made it." School is a step above the anarchy that was the earth before modern times, not a step below. "For example if a child is told to do task B, but aren't given a satisfactory reason for doing it, then they are highly compelled to cheat, lazy or not, if completion of the task gets them something of understandable value." "Cheating" for some tasks are just another word for getting it done more efficiently. "When students get to college many more of them see this, but still a lot don't understand the full importance of actually learning." Some students don't learn because it's something they just don't want to do. When you have a choice between hanging out with your friends and partying all night and studying for a test/learning something new, the activity that is more "fun" trumps all. When the student that is partying all the time starts failing (IE: bad grades), they will then be forced to either start studying or leave. Without grades, they would just continue partying. I still don't really see your point.
  - chrischen 16y ago
    The point of contention here is that you think cheating will always catch up to you. I'm saying that the world is not so liquid and ideal. Someone cheating, assuming they do it right (and don't over do it), will probably get more than they deserve (in an idea world) before they die, if they did everything 100% by the book. Simple karmic forces (the cause-effect force) dictate that if you cheat constantly, you will increase your chances of being caught and punished. However people don't live forever, so it's highly possible they will get more than they deserve in their lifetime if they cheat. I think if you look at it from afar, you may not notice the inequity caused by cheating. I really can't really say how much cheating impacts society, but I definitely disagree with you on your claim that cheating is always (or at least to a point of insignificancy) caught/punished accordingly.

by rick888 16y ago

chrischen 16y ago

> That's like saying: If we stop arresting people, we won't have any more criminals. It's actually more like saying we should take away all laws. > How are we going to judge people on how much they have learned if not on concepts and material from their lessons? Well, without laws, whoever is still alive at the end of the day has made it. > Those students are lazy and they will most likely bring that laziness to their job. I think it's naive to think all the people who cheat all get what they deserve. I honestly can't say what % of them do get what they deserve, but I'm sure it's not all of them. Yes, given time = infinity, they will all get what they deserve. It's also an uphill battle to not get what you deserve and cheat, but I think a lot of people can get away with cheating before they die. And also it does not mean they are lazy. It simply means they are more practical. For example if a child is told to do task B, but aren't given a satisfactory reason for doing it, then they are highly compelled to cheat, lazy or not, if completion of the task gets them something of understandable value. > If I hacked into my school's computer system and gave myself all A's, it doesn't make me any smarter in Calculus (one of the subjects where I changed my grade). Why would you do this? I'm guessing you would do this if A's could get you a better job right/more opportunities? So getting the As has understandable value to you. So that means you have two possible opinions regarding the actual learning part: 1 - You do not understand why you have to learn it, so the least path of resistance for you is to cheat (You're not necessarily lazy, you just don't want to do unnecessary work), 2 - You understand the value of the learning but you're a lazy and you just try to cheat to get the grades for free. > You could go out and buy a trophy that says that you made MVP of your softball league, but isn't the point to earn it? The point is to earn it, but lots of students don't immediately see that point. They're just told that you have to do learn this and that it will one day be important. When students get to college many more of them see this, but still a lot don't understand the full importance of actually learning. It's why people pad or lie on resumes. Some people do it 'cause they're lazy, but some do it because they believe the end justifies the means. The unfortunate part is that a lot of these students can continue doing this and get a job at a big company because a big company doesn't care so much about actual performance, so as long as you have the credentials. Disclaimer: I cheated once on a spelling test in 5th grade, apart from that, I do not remember ever cheating again.

rick888 16y ago
"It's why people pad or lie on resumes. Some people do it 'cause they're lazy, but some do it because they believe the end justifies the means. The unfortunate part is that a lot of these students can continue doing this and get a job at a big company because a big company doesn't care so much about actual performance, so as long as you have the credentials." Most big companies don't care about grades either. If you pad your resume with lies, you might be able to slide by some of the time, but it will eventually catch up with you. "Disclaimer: I cheated once on a spelling test in 5th grade, apart from that, I do not remember ever cheating again." I cheated once in elementary school also (I think it was on a history test). But I learned that cheating is wrong and I haven't done it since. "Well, without laws, whoever is still alive at the end of the day has made it." School is a step above the anarchy that was the earth before modern times, not a step below. "For example if a child is told to do task B, but aren't given a satisfactory reason for doing it, then they are highly compelled to cheat, lazy or not, if completion of the task gets them something of understandable value." "Cheating" for some tasks are just another word for getting it done more efficiently. "When students get to college many more of them see this, but still a lot don't understand the full importance of actually learning." Some students don't learn because it's something they just don't want to do. When you have a choice between hanging out with your friends and partying all night and studying for a test/learning something new, the activity that is more "fun" trumps all. When the student that is partying all the time starts failing (IE: bad grades), they will then be forced to either start studying or leave. Without grades, they would just continue partying. I still don't really see your point.
- chrischen 16y ago
  The point of contention here is that you think cheating will always catch up to you. I'm saying that the world is not so liquid and ideal. Someone cheating, assuming they do it right (and don't over do it), will probably get more than they deserve (in an idea world) before they die, if they did everything 100% by the book. Simple karmic forces (the cause-effect force) dictate that if you cheat constantly, you will increase your chances of being caught and punished. However people don't live forever, so it's highly possible they will get more than they deserve in their lifetime if they cheat. I think if you look at it from afar, you may not notice the inequity caused by cheating. I really can't really say how much cheating impacts society, but I definitely disagree with you on your claim that cheating is always (or at least to a point of insignificancy) caught/punished accordingly.