5 ms·

Why don't you go ahead and read this: http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2017/08/sloppy-science.html http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2017/08/slopp

Why don't you go ahead and read this: http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2017/08/sloppy-science.html http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2017/08/sloppy-scien... Simply put, unless you are mindful of someone's "subjective feelings" you will never be able to have a "factual discourse" with them. People are individuals and not statistics. You can quote statistics and average all day long, but if you offend, anger, or harm someone with your words, that person will not listen to you.

humanrebar 9y ago
> Simply put, unless you are mindful of someone's "subjective feelings" you will never be able to have a "factual discourse" with them. Isn't that a catch 22? How do we know their subjective feelings if we can't discuss contested issues?
- Delmania 9y ago
  No, not really. For this specific example, Damore knew the issue is a divisive one. If he didn't, then he does need to have some basic sensitivity training. From what I remember reading, he did acknowledge the issue was contentious. In that respect, there are ways and techniques to have that conversation. What Damore did was not that way. He should have consulted a resource like Crucial Conversations (https://www.amazon.com/Crucial-Conversations-Talking-Stakes-Second/dp/1469266822 https://www.amazon.com/Crucial-Conversations-Talking-Stakes-...) first.
  - rpiguy 9y ago
    Sensitivity training would not have helped and is not required here. He went out of his way to praise women engineers and to emphasize he supports diversity. There are just certain that intolerant people cannot discuss rationally, like biological gender differences. The fault lies with the intolerant minds, not Damore's approach.
    - Delmania 9y ago
      That's victim blaming. His claims that he supports diversity are nothing more than false virtue-signaling. I have yet to find a person who would say there are no biological gender differences. The problem is assuming those differences are the underlying cause for why women and minorities are under represented in technology. Were you aware the first programmers were females? There are -many- reasons why women and minorities are underrepresented. The biological differences are not a significant one.
      - backpropaganda 9y ago
        > Were you aware the first programmers were females? That was when there were some low thousands of software engineers in total. Hardly statistically significant to compare with today's population. The first few engineers were female because of sexism in the 1970s. The only mainstream jobs they were allowed to have were teaching and programming. There are fewer females now because of lack of sexism not due to it. As society became liberal, women started becoming doctors and lawyers, which matches with their interests much more than programming.
      - rpiguy 9y ago
        Damore is the victim of an aggressive and intolerant mob. I am certainly not victim blaming.
    - jshevek 9y ago
      Yes, the fault lies with intolerant minds. If we forget this, then intolerant minds will have awesome veto powers over what the rest of us will be allowed to discuss. Intolerant people are likely to use those veto powers.
  - 013a 9y ago
    Damore self-identifies as autistic [1]. Are you seriously suggesting that the proper course of action is that a mentally ill individual should receive training on how to speak and think from his corporation? What has the world come to where this is sanity. Liberals today: "Embrace diversity of thought, color, and sexual genitalia! Wait I don't like that thing he said, fire him. Wait, he's mentally ill and thus persecuted, he needs to be protected. Wait, autism isn't a metal illness, he's fine just the way he is. Wait, he's a white male, he's not fine just the way he is, he's evil. Wait, he's self-identifying as autistic, he's not really autistic, a doctor has to diagnose him. Wait, no, that's different than self-identifying your gender, that's totally fine." [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/JamesDamore/comments/6thcy3/im_james_damore_ama/dlkpb8k/?st=j6e5saca&sh=359926d5 https://www.reddit.com/r/JamesDamore/comments/6thcy3/im_jame...
bufbupa 9y ago
Thanks for the link, but I disagree with your interpretation and the analogy here. I interpreted this link as saying "don't speak in absolutes", not "don't hurt someones feeling". More often than not, there's information you find out later, and its very likely that you could be wrong. EG: nobody can run a 4 minute mile. This memo did not say women were bad engineers.
- Delmania 9y ago
  Why don't you reread that article? >The sloppy scientist says, "on average, across populations, left to its own devices, this group is [not as skilled] [neurotic] [hard to work with] [not as smart] [not as strong] [slower]" etc. They make assumptions without sufficient data, and the rigor is missing. Here's the line: >The first problem is that human beings aren't averages, they're individuals. His core argument was that there are biological reasons why women are under-represented in technology and that the initiatives taken by Google to reach out to females were illegal and discriminatory. He attempted to use science to justify his beliefs. That would lead many women, who already are self-conscience about their position, into wondering if they are present to their own merit, or because Google is trying to fill a quota.
gmarx 9y ago
The problem is anger and offense are caused by, and mechanisms for dealing with, having our minds changed. The only things you can attempt to persuade someone to change his mind about, without making him angry, is something he doesn't much care about in the first place.
jshevek 9y ago
The situation is more dire than that link suggests. It isn't just that some people are too emotionally reactive to be directly involved in a reasonable conversation. We are currently shutting down even the possibility of a conversation among any set of a large group of people, because some people in that group are uncomfortable with it. They aren't even willing to sit out the conversation that makes them uncomfortable, they are insisting that nobody else be allowed to have the conversation within the larger community.
- what_ever 9y ago
  I think this interview with 4 female engineers gave a lot of ways how that discussion could have had. Have you read it yet?

humanrebar 9y ago

> Simply put, unless you are mindful of someone's "subjective feelings" you will never be able to have a "factual discourse" with them. Isn't that a catch 22? How do we know their subjective feelings if we can't discuss contested issues?

Delmania 9y ago
No, not really. For this specific example, Damore knew the issue is a divisive one. If he didn't, then he does need to have some basic sensitivity training. From what I remember reading, he did acknowledge the issue was contentious. In that respect, there are ways and techniques to have that conversation. What Damore did was not that way. He should have consulted a resource like Crucial Conversations (https://www.amazon.com/Crucial-Conversations-Talking-Stakes-Second/dp/1469266822 https://www.amazon.com/Crucial-Conversations-Talking-Stakes-...) first.
- rpiguy 9y ago
  Sensitivity training would not have helped and is not required here. He went out of his way to praise women engineers and to emphasize he supports diversity. There are just certain that intolerant people cannot discuss rationally, like biological gender differences. The fault lies with the intolerant minds, not Damore's approach.
  - Delmania 9y ago
    That's victim blaming. His claims that he supports diversity are nothing more than false virtue-signaling. I have yet to find a person who would say there are no biological gender differences. The problem is assuming those differences are the underlying cause for why women and minorities are under represented in technology. Were you aware the first programmers were females? There are -many- reasons why women and minorities are underrepresented. The biological differences are not a significant one.
    - backpropaganda 9y ago
      > Were you aware the first programmers were females? That was when there were some low thousands of software engineers in total. Hardly statistically significant to compare with today's population. The first few engineers were female because of sexism in the 1970s. The only mainstream jobs they were allowed to have were teaching and programming. There are fewer females now because of lack of sexism not due to it. As society became liberal, women started becoming doctors and lawyers, which matches with their interests much more than programming.
    - rpiguy 9y ago
      Damore is the victim of an aggressive and intolerant mob. I am certainly not victim blaming.
  - jshevek 9y ago
    Yes, the fault lies with intolerant minds. If we forget this, then intolerant minds will have awesome veto powers over what the rest of us will be allowed to discuss. Intolerant people are likely to use those veto powers.
- 013a 9y ago
  Damore self-identifies as autistic [1]. Are you seriously suggesting that the proper course of action is that a mentally ill individual should receive training on how to speak and think from his corporation? What has the world come to where this is sanity. Liberals today: "Embrace diversity of thought, color, and sexual genitalia! Wait I don't like that thing he said, fire him. Wait, he's mentally ill and thus persecuted, he needs to be protected. Wait, autism isn't a metal illness, he's fine just the way he is. Wait, he's a white male, he's not fine just the way he is, he's evil. Wait, he's self-identifying as autistic, he's not really autistic, a doctor has to diagnose him. Wait, no, that's different than self-identifying your gender, that's totally fine." [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/JamesDamore/comments/6thcy3/im_james_damore_ama/dlkpb8k/?st=j6e5saca&sh=359926d5 https://www.reddit.com/r/JamesDamore/comments/6thcy3/im_jame...

bufbupa 9y ago

Thanks for the link, but I disagree with your interpretation and the analogy here. I interpreted this link as saying "don't speak in absolutes", not "don't hurt someones feeling". More often than not, there's information you find out later, and its very likely that you could be wrong. EG: nobody can run a 4 minute mile. This memo did not say women were bad engineers.

Delmania 9y ago
Why don't you reread that article? >The sloppy scientist says, "on average, across populations, left to its own devices, this group is [not as skilled] [neurotic] [hard to work with] [not as smart] [not as strong] [slower]" etc. They make assumptions without sufficient data, and the rigor is missing. Here's the line: >The first problem is that human beings aren't averages, they're individuals. His core argument was that there are biological reasons why women are under-represented in technology and that the initiatives taken by Google to reach out to females were illegal and discriminatory. He attempted to use science to justify his beliefs. That would lead many women, who already are self-conscience about their position, into wondering if they are present to their own merit, or because Google is trying to fill a quota.

gmarx 9y ago

The problem is anger and offense are caused by, and mechanisms for dealing with, having our minds changed. The only things you can attempt to persuade someone to change his mind about, without making him angry, is something he doesn't much care about in the first place.

jshevek 9y ago

The situation is more dire than that link suggests. It isn't just that some people are too emotionally reactive to be directly involved in a reasonable conversation. We are currently shutting down even the possibility of a conversation among any set of a large group of people, because some people in that group are uncomfortable with it. They aren't even willing to sit out the conversation that makes them uncomfortable, they are insisting that nobody else be allowed to have the conversation within the larger community.

what_ever 9y ago
I think this interview with 4 female engineers gave a lot of ways how that discussion could have had. Have you read it yet?