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From your quote: > When I walk into my job at a tech company, how do I know which of my colleagues thinks I’m an outlier among women versus someone who was hir

From your quote: > When I walk into my job at a tech company, how do I know which of my colleagues thinks I’m an outlier among women versus someone who was hired because I’m female that doesn’t deserve the job they have? Your perspective is that this is harmful because the memo caused self doubt, so the memo was the problem. From Damore's perspective, if there were no quota/diversity hiring programs at that place of employment, the woman in question would have no reason to suspect the latter. The hiring policy was the problem. Totally different interpretations of cause and effect.

and0 9y ago
The author of that quote clearly wasn't describing her fears that she had been hired only because of affirmative action, but the claims about her innate inabilities, however slight.
- turtleofdeath 9y ago
  Yes, but this raises the issue of affirmative action causing bias about innate abilities, and that's absolutely true. If you knew there were a lower bar for people who had red hair, for example, because there's a pay gap and their population ratio isn't represented equally, every time you'd have someone on your team with red hair, you'd wonder if they were there because of the exception made for them or if they got there on pure merit. Thus, affirmative action causes people to question that merit (bias). Worse, the redhead who got in never knows if they got accepted based on merit or based on some quota, which contributes heavily Impostor syndrome, negative self image and confirmation bias based on that negative self image. You combine these two things over time and there is absolutely an impact. Damore's ultimate points were: let's discuss this and, by the way, please don't ignore me just because my opinion is unpopular.
  - n4r9 9y ago
    You can flip this argument on its head. As a man I'm often thinking about why the unequal gender distribution of roles and salary within my company is the way it is. I often wonder how much of my own success is due to opportunities and encouragement that women generally don't receive.
dguaraglia 9y ago
> Your perspective is that this is harmful because the memo caused self doubt, so the memo was the problem. It's not about self-doubt, it's about creating a stereotype by which other people (managers, peers) will prejudge you even before you write the first line of code. This prejudice already exists as is, Damore's memo doesn't do anything to help it. If improving women's opportunities at Google was his objective, he failed miserably at it.
- shitRabbits 9y ago
  I don't think the memo does that. I've not been convinced by anything I've read trying to indicate that it does. I am convinced that people saying it does seem to read more into it and are upset by perceived implications. If I felt the memo implied or created that stereotype I'd denounce it as well.
  - dguaraglia 9y ago
    Let me put it in a different way: It is widely acknowledged that there are social factors that might affect the number of women entering the field. He could've made as valid an argument about the hiring practices affecting diversity, without bringing up the supposed "biological" factor altogether. Not bringing it up would have probably put him in the right side of the Code of Conduct. At best, it was poor judgement for him to bring it up when it didn't add anything to the conversation. At worst, it betrays a certain level of misogyny. Those of us who tend to assume the worst, might be more inclined to believe the latter, but I wouldn't blame people for believing the former.
    - shitRabbits 9y ago
      I appreciate your response and insight into how people might arrive at a more negative conclusion based on what values they read into the text. One takeaway I have from this is that discussion about biological differences between sexes is often misused, so should be avoided in discussion related to diversity if you want people to not form an emotional reaction. The whole thing was a meandering stroll of possible reasons. I absolutely don't see this memo creating a hostile workplace or illiciting the pushback it has garnered simply by what I read in the text. I read a document referencing population level differences between sexes(relevant in the context of attempting to explain differences in preferences that account for the difference in size of the groups) that have no bearing on individual differences between sexes(not even slightly relevant in hiring) My internal reader probably filled in the benefit of the doubt.
notreallythough 9y ago
The memo didn't cause self doubt, the memo was intended to inspire others to look for doubt (hence the "lowering the bar"). The memo specifically targeted diversity hires as a lower bar. Imagine if a memo started circulating that asked everyone to question whether or not you were hired for your skill. That's a terrible environment to create.
- jjn2009 9y ago
  Lowering the bar for a cohort is going to create different distributions of skill in that cohort, this person wasn't the first and won't be the last to come to this conclusion. I think damaging organizational cohesion is never the right choice but both sides of this argument contribute to that damage.
  - irpapakons 9y ago
    There is no evidence of lowering the bar. Companies like Google aim to cast a wider net at candidates, the bar stays the same. On the contrary, there is evidence of bias against women, which logically means that the bar is lower for men by default.
    - jjn2009 9y ago
      I'm telling you in plain mathematical terms that the way you go about hiring effects the distribution of candidates skill if you introduce any bias into the system regardless of whether or not its a literal or figurative bar or a bias on any parameter. I don't think anyone is going to disagree that biases exist on both sides of the aisle. Arguing about what google does or does not do is futile exercise I made zero claim about google and only believe they have introduced some biases in their hiring in some form.
  - notreallythough 9y ago
    There's no evidence they lowered the bar on skill level. This entire thread is a demonstration of "it's much easier to fool someone than to convince someone they've been fooled"
onion2k 9y ago
I've met engineers who have expressed a belief that women are often hired if the recruiter found them attractive, and that those women shouldn't have been hired. While those engineers are able to find employment there will always be places where women don't feel welcome, even with diversity programs in place. It is simply the case that some engineers are grossly sexist and will always think a woman has been hired for some other reason beside technical merit if they have an opportunity to. If Damore can't see that then he hasn't enough experience to be talking about hiring.
- e9 9y ago
  Google doesn't operate that way, they has strict hiring policies and procedures. Recruiter or anyone else has no way to influence hiring without doing something shady (doing selective interview like what Damore claimed they were doing).
  - tedivm 9y ago
    Damore literally said they were "lowering the bar". You can't have it both ways here.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - Cogito 9y ago
      He said "Hiring practices which can effectively lower the bar for “diversity” candidates by decreasing the false negative rate". He did not say they were lowering the bar, but that by rejecting (proportionally) a greater number of qualified male candidates than qualified female candidates, the bar is effectively lowered. If what he says is true, that there is a higher false negative rate for men, it's hard to imagine a system where the bar isn't effectively lowered. The one possibility I saw argued elsewhere is that you could take all qualified men, and randomly reject some of them. At that point, you would expect the bar to be level. If however you rejected qualified men in a non-random way, which is more plausible, the effect would be to change the bar. I hadn't ever really thought about this kind of selection effect on the statistics of populations, so would love to hear if this sounds wrong or what the real expected outcome should be.

and0 9y ago

The author of that quote clearly wasn't describing her fears that she had been hired only because of affirmative action, but the claims about her innate inabilities, however slight.

turtleofdeath 9y ago
Yes, but this raises the issue of affirmative action causing bias about innate abilities, and that's absolutely true. If you knew there were a lower bar for people who had red hair, for example, because there's a pay gap and their population ratio isn't represented equally, every time you'd have someone on your team with red hair, you'd wonder if they were there because of the exception made for them or if they got there on pure merit. Thus, affirmative action causes people to question that merit (bias). Worse, the redhead who got in never knows if they got accepted based on merit or based on some quota, which contributes heavily Impostor syndrome, negative self image and confirmation bias based on that negative self image. You combine these two things over time and there is absolutely an impact. Damore's ultimate points were: let's discuss this and, by the way, please don't ignore me just because my opinion is unpopular.
- n4r9 9y ago
  You can flip this argument on its head. As a man I'm often thinking about why the unequal gender distribution of roles and salary within my company is the way it is. I often wonder how much of my own success is due to opportunities and encouragement that women generally don't receive.

dguaraglia 9y ago

> Your perspective is that this is harmful because the memo caused self doubt, so the memo was the problem. It's not about self-doubt, it's about creating a stereotype by which other people (managers, peers) will prejudge you even before you write the first line of code. This prejudice already exists as is, Damore's memo doesn't do anything to help it. If improving women's opportunities at Google was his objective, he failed miserably at it.

shitRabbits 9y ago
I don't think the memo does that. I've not been convinced by anything I've read trying to indicate that it does. I am convinced that people saying it does seem to read more into it and are upset by perceived implications. If I felt the memo implied or created that stereotype I'd denounce it as well.
- dguaraglia 9y ago
  Let me put it in a different way: It is widely acknowledged that there are social factors that might affect the number of women entering the field. He could've made as valid an argument about the hiring practices affecting diversity, without bringing up the supposed "biological" factor altogether. Not bringing it up would have probably put him in the right side of the Code of Conduct. At best, it was poor judgement for him to bring it up when it didn't add anything to the conversation. At worst, it betrays a certain level of misogyny. Those of us who tend to assume the worst, might be more inclined to believe the latter, but I wouldn't blame people for believing the former.
  - shitRabbits 9y ago
    I appreciate your response and insight into how people might arrive at a more negative conclusion based on what values they read into the text. One takeaway I have from this is that discussion about biological differences between sexes is often misused, so should be avoided in discussion related to diversity if you want people to not form an emotional reaction. The whole thing was a meandering stroll of possible reasons. I absolutely don't see this memo creating a hostile workplace or illiciting the pushback it has garnered simply by what I read in the text. I read a document referencing population level differences between sexes(relevant in the context of attempting to explain differences in preferences that account for the difference in size of the groups) that have no bearing on individual differences between sexes(not even slightly relevant in hiring) My internal reader probably filled in the benefit of the doubt.

notreallythough 9y ago

The memo didn't cause self doubt, the memo was intended to inspire others to look for doubt (hence the "lowering the bar"). The memo specifically targeted diversity hires as a lower bar. Imagine if a memo started circulating that asked everyone to question whether or not you were hired for your skill. That's a terrible environment to create.

jjn2009 9y ago
Lowering the bar for a cohort is going to create different distributions of skill in that cohort, this person wasn't the first and won't be the last to come to this conclusion. I think damaging organizational cohesion is never the right choice but both sides of this argument contribute to that damage.
- irpapakons 9y ago
  There is no evidence of lowering the bar. Companies like Google aim to cast a wider net at candidates, the bar stays the same. On the contrary, there is evidence of bias against women, which logically means that the bar is lower for men by default.
  - jjn2009 9y ago
    I'm telling you in plain mathematical terms that the way you go about hiring effects the distribution of candidates skill if you introduce any bias into the system regardless of whether or not its a literal or figurative bar or a bias on any parameter. I don't think anyone is going to disagree that biases exist on both sides of the aisle. Arguing about what google does or does not do is futile exercise I made zero claim about google and only believe they have introduced some biases in their hiring in some form.
- notreallythough 9y ago
  There's no evidence they lowered the bar on skill level. This entire thread is a demonstration of "it's much easier to fool someone than to convince someone they've been fooled"

onion2k 9y ago

I've met engineers who have expressed a belief that women are often hired if the recruiter found them attractive, and that those women shouldn't have been hired. While those engineers are able to find employment there will always be places where women don't feel welcome, even with diversity programs in place. It is simply the case that some engineers are grossly sexist and will always think a woman has been hired for some other reason beside technical merit if they have an opportunity to. If Damore can't see that then he hasn't enough experience to be talking about hiring.

e9 9y ago
Google doesn't operate that way, they has strict hiring policies and procedures. Recruiter or anyone else has no way to influence hiring without doing something shady (doing selective interview like what Damore claimed they were doing).
- tedivm 9y ago
  Damore literally said they were "lowering the bar". You can't have it both ways here.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - Cogito 9y ago
    He said "Hiring practices which can effectively lower the bar for “diversity” candidates by decreasing the false negative rate". He did not say they were lowering the bar, but that by rejecting (proportionally) a greater number of qualified male candidates than qualified female candidates, the bar is effectively lowered. If what he says is true, that there is a higher false negative rate for men, it's hard to imagine a system where the bar isn't effectively lowered. The one possibility I saw argued elsewhere is that you could take all qualified men, and randomly reject some of them. At that point, you would expect the bar to be level. If however you rejected qualified men in a non-random way, which is more plausible, the effect would be to change the bar. I hadn't ever really thought about this kind of selection effect on the statistics of populations, so would love to hear if this sounds wrong or what the real expected outcome should be.