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> I shouldn’t have had to write this: I’m busy and a little effort on your part would have made it unnecessary This line seems really over the top. If you're t

> I shouldn’t have had to write this: I’m busy and a little effort on your part would have made it unnecessary This line seems really over the top. If you're the leader of your company - it's your JOB to write to the team, correct them where they're wrong and steer the conversation in a productive manner. Not really a fan of this overall post (50% of Googler's still don't think he should have been fired). If you think he should have been fired - that's fine - but I think if you watch his interviews, he was earnestly looking for a discussion. Feel free to write a letter or explain in real terms why he was wrong if you feel like that - but all these pieces about "why we shouldn't even have to have the discussion" - are sort of missing the point he brought up - which was that he didn't feel they could even have a discussion on this topic.

JoshTriplett 9y ago
> I think if you watch his interviews, he was earnestly looking for a discussion. Would those be the interviews he's already doing with hate groups and extremists, who seem happy to cheer on their latest champion? If there was even the slightest doubt about the ideology motivating the memo before, there really shouldn't be now.
- joelrunyon 9y ago
  C'mon man - take that argument to youtube. He's done plenty of press - maybe some you don't like - but also some very mainstream ones - WSJ - https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-i-was-fired-by-google-1502481290 https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-i-was-fired-by-google-15024... Reason - http://reason.com/archives/2017/08/14/an-interview-with-james-damore http://reason.com/archives/2017/08/14/an-interview-with-jame... Bloomberg - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-10/fired-google-engineer-says-company-execs-shamed-and-smeared-him https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-10/fired-goo... He explicitly says he doesn't endorse "alt-right" ideology - http://money.cnn.com/2017/08/15/technology/culture/james-damore-interview/index.html http://money.cnn.com/2017/08/15/technology/culture/james-dam... The guy is a introverted programmer, not a media strategist. Debate his memo on the merits + stop doing the name-calling - it actually has the opposite desired outcome. If he's really wrong, take apart his piece line-by-line and show how. If it's so clear-cut and he's obviously racist, it shouldn't be too hard. BTW, for reference purposes, here's the full memo - http://diversitymemo.com/ http://diversitymemo.com/ - make sure you reference this one and not the Gizmodo one that took out the various citations.
  - JoshTriplett 9y ago
    > He's done plenty of press - maybe some you don't like I didn't say "don't like", I said "hate groups and extremists". Yes, he's also talking to anyone else who will give him a microphone, but those aren't the ones that matter. And what he professes and what he does in practice are two different things. > If he's really wrong, take apart his piece line-by-line and show how. Leaving aside how many people have already done so, that is precisely the kind of time-wasting that people who keep dredging up old arguments enjoy. Not a single one of the "arguments" in the memo is new; they're the tired old ones that have been hashed out a thousand times over.
    - joelrunyon 9y ago
      Please link to the extremists you're referencing. Also - please link to a line-by-line breakdown by someone refuting each point (and importantly: refuting to his actual words, not insinuations of what he might be thinking). Citations are important and helpful to a productive debate.
      - JoshTriplett 9y ago
        Already done elsewhere in this thread; the links from that article in turn provide a mountain of detailed responses. Also consider whether you hold all refutations of random screeds to the same standard of evidence, or if this one somehow deserves more credence. The memo itself was written by a random engineer with no particular qualifications or expertise or interest in past work on the topic, but somehow anyone wishing to respond to it must write an academic paper with citations? And furthermore, somehow a "line-by-line breakdown" is required, rather than, for instance, finding and refuting the actual points made as in any other normal argument?
  - tiogemini 9y ago
    Very well said! Damore is not a seasoned press veteran, and even if he was it wouldn't matter because press veterans are constantly being attacked too. I thought he did great in the CNN interview despite being out of his element. Just an introverted, earnest person trying to defend himself.
- collyw 9y ago
  "hate groups and extremists" Have you got any evidence of this, because it sounds like bullshit?
  - JoshTriplett 9y ago
    Try https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/aug/13/james-damore-google-memo-youtube-white-men-radicalization https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/aug/13/james-dam... for a start, which is quite well cited and referenced.
    - metaphorm 9y ago
      Stefan Molyneux and Jordan Peterson are just right-of-center. They aren't hate groups or extremists. Peterson in particular is emphatically reasonable and moderate, if a bit disagreeable.
      - JoshTriplett 9y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_Molyneux https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_Molyneux provides a substantial amount of evidence to the contrary, for starters.
        metaphorm 9y ago
        he's a right wing libertarian and has been involved in some controversies. when someone says right wing extremist I think of the neo-Nazi's in Charlottesville, not some blogger with anti-authoritarian views.
        JoshTriplett 9y ago
        It's really amusing to watch the sudden edits of that article by IP addresses very shortly after posting my comment. Here is the version of the article I was citing, for the record: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Stefan_Molyneux&oldid=795385307 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Stefan_Molyneux&o... I would recommend reading that version, rather than the rapidly "sanitized" version that omits various unfavorable media citations.

JoshTriplett 9y ago

> I think if you watch his interviews, he was earnestly looking for a discussion. Would those be the interviews he's already doing with hate groups and extremists, who seem happy to cheer on their latest champion? If there was even the slightest doubt about the ideology motivating the memo before, there really shouldn't be now.

joelrunyon 9y ago
C'mon man - take that argument to youtube. He's done plenty of press - maybe some you don't like - but also some very mainstream ones - WSJ - https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-i-was-fired-by-google-1502481290 https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-i-was-fired-by-google-15024... Reason - http://reason.com/archives/2017/08/14/an-interview-with-james-damore http://reason.com/archives/2017/08/14/an-interview-with-jame... Bloomberg - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-10/fired-google-engineer-says-company-execs-shamed-and-smeared-him https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-10/fired-goo... He explicitly says he doesn't endorse "alt-right" ideology - http://money.cnn.com/2017/08/15/technology/culture/james-damore-interview/index.html http://money.cnn.com/2017/08/15/technology/culture/james-dam... The guy is a introverted programmer, not a media strategist. Debate his memo on the merits + stop doing the name-calling - it actually has the opposite desired outcome. If he's really wrong, take apart his piece line-by-line and show how. If it's so clear-cut and he's obviously racist, it shouldn't be too hard. BTW, for reference purposes, here's the full memo - http://diversitymemo.com/ http://diversitymemo.com/ - make sure you reference this one and not the Gizmodo one that took out the various citations.
- JoshTriplett 9y ago
  > He's done plenty of press - maybe some you don't like I didn't say "don't like", I said "hate groups and extremists". Yes, he's also talking to anyone else who will give him a microphone, but those aren't the ones that matter. And what he professes and what he does in practice are two different things. > If he's really wrong, take apart his piece line-by-line and show how. Leaving aside how many people have already done so, that is precisely the kind of time-wasting that people who keep dredging up old arguments enjoy. Not a single one of the "arguments" in the memo is new; they're the tired old ones that have been hashed out a thousand times over.
  - joelrunyon 9y ago
    Please link to the extremists you're referencing. Also - please link to a line-by-line breakdown by someone refuting each point (and importantly: refuting to his actual words, not insinuations of what he might be thinking). Citations are important and helpful to a productive debate.
    - JoshTriplett 9y ago
      Already done elsewhere in this thread; the links from that article in turn provide a mountain of detailed responses. Also consider whether you hold all refutations of random screeds to the same standard of evidence, or if this one somehow deserves more credence. The memo itself was written by a random engineer with no particular qualifications or expertise or interest in past work on the topic, but somehow anyone wishing to respond to it must write an academic paper with citations? And furthermore, somehow a "line-by-line breakdown" is required, rather than, for instance, finding and refuting the actual points made as in any other normal argument?
- tiogemini 9y ago
  Very well said! Damore is not a seasoned press veteran, and even if he was it wouldn't matter because press veterans are constantly being attacked too. I thought he did great in the CNN interview despite being out of his element. Just an introverted, earnest person trying to defend himself.
collyw 9y ago
"hate groups and extremists" Have you got any evidence of this, because it sounds like bullshit?
- JoshTriplett 9y ago
  Try https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/aug/13/james-damore-google-memo-youtube-white-men-radicalization https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/aug/13/james-dam... for a start, which is quite well cited and referenced.
  - metaphorm 9y ago
    Stefan Molyneux and Jordan Peterson are just right-of-center. They aren't hate groups or extremists. Peterson in particular is emphatically reasonable and moderate, if a bit disagreeable.
    - JoshTriplett 9y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_Molyneux https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_Molyneux provides a substantial amount of evidence to the contrary, for starters.
      - metaphorm 9y ago
        he's a right wing libertarian and has been involved in some controversies. when someone says right wing extremist I think of the neo-Nazi's in Charlottesville, not some blogger with anti-authoritarian views.
        JoshTriplett 9y ago
        It's really amusing to watch the sudden edits of that article by IP addresses very shortly after posting my comment. Here is the version of the article I was citing, for the record: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Stefan_Molyneux&oldid=795385307 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Stefan_Molyneux&o... I would recommend reading that version, rather than the rapidly "sanitized" version that omits various unfavorable media citations.