8 ms·

18-year-old asks man for advice on her startup, he texts back sleazy messages

29 points by danielrmay 9y ago

alistproducer2 9y ago
Here's the thing: for men being decent requires effort - especially online where the risk/reward ration of being a douchebag seems so tantalizingly < 1. That's obviously changing because doing stuff like this outside the confines of dating sites is becoming much riskier. IMO that's a good thing. I think men will always have to fight the urge to not "go for it" with women they find attractive. In a way, we're kinda hard-wired to do that. That doesn't mean that we can't or shouldn't fight the urge and be decent to women - especially now that women everywhere are speaking up and letting us know how this kind of behavior makes them feel. Addendum: The first reactions to my post are pretty negative. I can see why (over-generalization) but on-balance I don't feel like my post is negative. The core message is - be decent. If the volume of women's complaints are a measure, I'd venture to say there are a lot of men out there that struggle to do so. If you're not one of those guys- awesome . But a lot of dudes are and the first step to getting them to treat women well is to vocalize the expectation that they do so and maybe while we're at it, not trying to shame them into decency by pointing out how awesome you are and, by contrast, what horrible human beings they are for having unacceptable feelings.
- Analemma_ 9y ago
  > Here's the thing: for men being decent requires effort > I think men will always have to fight the urge to not "go for it" with women they find attractive. For you, maybe. Not for me, and not for a lot of men. Please don't typical-mind-fallacy the rest of us who don't need to expend effort to not be a douchebag.
  - cloakandswagger 9y ago
    Serious post: It's possible you have low testosterone levels. Annual testosterone checks are an important medical precaution for men, as decreased levels can be caused by serious medical conditions.
    - mikestew 9y ago
      If I'm not a raging douchebag, I might be low on testosterone? I'm sure that's not what you meant, but that's how I'm reading in light of the original comment. Serious question to a serious post: do you have anything more concrete on which to base one's decision to get checked?
    - noncoml 9y ago
      You came to this conclusion because he said he doesn't have the urge to "go for it" when he sees a female he finds attractive? Not cool dude :D
    - dfraser992 9y ago
      I logged in just so I could tell the parent commenter off... Then I got distracted writing up a reply to someone about the Damore memo, which referenced how 'conservatives' seem obsessed with biology and base all their nonsense on a simplistic understanding of such. And now this guy.... I have higher than average testosterone levels, always have, and I'm 48 now. And I wouldn't do something this stupid - it is all about context. And understanding how women operate (duh). If someone messaged me asking for tech related advice, I'd freely give it and not try to do something out of the psychosocial boundary lines. If the interaction develops, then you and her are starting a relationship (generic use of the word). Time goes on, you meet at some conference etc... then you can appropriately gauge what your chances are and possibly will have more of a chance b/c 1) you have shown you're not an idiot and 2) women control the personal sphere of life - they grok relationships better. Play by their rules (ish, sort of) and things go much better. Dumbasses don't understand the dance that goes on. This guy's behavior is exactly equivalent to asking every woman at a bar if they want to fuck. The ones who say yes are the ones more likely to have daddy issues etc and no one in their right mind deliberately goes down that road except for douchebags
  - alistproducer2 9y ago
    Its pretty obvious to all that a generalization is just that. By definition it doesn't include the entire population. The urge to hit on a woman you find attractive doesn't make anyone a doucebag - it makes them a straight/bi male. Not all of us, but a pretty good chunk. And to be clear I'm not including egregious things like unsolicited dick pics as "hitting on a woman." But good for you if you've never wanted to let a woman know you were interested while in conversation with her. How saintly of you to never have such a lurid thought.
    - dkh99 9y ago
      > How saintly of you to never have such a lurid thought. Some people--a lot of people--just don't have those thoughts. That doesn't make them better or worse than people who do; both can do good, or harmful things. I think the point of GP's comment was that there are many of people out there who simply don't feel that way. There are a lot of ways that might play out: they might not be attracted to others until someone is attracted to them; they might be attracted, but have no automatic desire to turn that into action/hitting on people; they might not be attracted to others period, et cetera. > The urge to hit on a woman you find attractive ... makes [you] a straight/bi male You're still assuming the two go hand in hand. Your impressions might be confirmation/selection bias: people who don't have the urge to hit on people they find attractive are going to be less obvious to you (insofar as they are competition for people you find attractive), and are also likely less inclined to jump into public discussions on the subject, given that a lack of sexual aggression is, in many demographics/situations, a basis for shaming. Edit: punctuation.
      - alistproducer2 9y ago
        >people who don't have the urge to hit on people they find attractive are going to be less... No, I'm listening to women. I'm watching the cat call videos. There are lots of guys out there that have these thoughts. What percentage they are? I don't know and don't really care because it doesn't matter. They exist. Period. Saying as much doesn't harm anyone. Not saying so does. My original message stands; if you feel like being an asshole to a woman, resist it - be decent.
    - 9y ago
  - ericmcer 9y ago
    Procreation only comes behind not dying in our list of biological prerogatives. Avoiding being a "douchebag" involves controlling these impulses. Suggesting men have a sex-drive is a not an example of the typical-mind-fallacy.
    - dkh99 9y ago
      If--if--I grant your premise that biological perspectives are significant in this discussion, I think that procreation and long-term reproductive goals aren't the same things at all. Procreation is short-term; create the possibility of a lineage and you've "succeeded". Humans don't work like that; we are eusocial animals with complex communities; "impregnate and move on" is not an evolutionary tendency we embody. That said, your premise is invalid. Biological prerogatives are not significant in the not-even-slightly-sexually-premised interactions between members of the 21st century tech community with career motivations and numerous other factors at work that evolution did not prepare them for. Saying that "biological prerogatives" are a significant factor here is like saying that a lemur let loose in a supermarket would be drawn to product branding based on how likely a given brand was to help the lemur secure a mate--too many factors have changed for simple parallels to be drawn. Edit: spelling, I still keep forgetting this isn't markdown.
      - ericmcer 9y ago
        Biological perspectives are relevant in any discussion involving human behavior. We are biological organisms, our mood and behavior are governed by chemical responses in our brain. I guess we are in tech so we should be able to suppress all the impulses, desires, and feelings that have been carved into us over hundreds of thousands of years of evolution.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > for men being decent requires effort As a man, I am offended by this stereotype. It takes no more effort to not make sexual advances in an inappropriate context (even when there is an attractive woman around) than it does to not assault and rob vulnerable passers-by on the street. Which, I suppose I now must add for clarity, also does not take any effort worthy of the name.
  - ben_jones 9y ago
    You could argue that the hyper sexualization of our culture trains both sexes to act in ways that are indecent. For example, men are taught to always make the first move and to be strong and persistent. How many romance movies involve a women rebuffing a man only for the man to keep trying until he "wins her over"? When someone misreads signals - as we all do, this conditioning can cause someones behavior to become creepy, inappropriate, or worse. Thus because we are conditioned to sometimes be indecent, it does in some circumstances require effort to override it.
- WheelsAtLarge 9y ago
  Where does just plain respect for people come in? Attractive or not there's just some basic decency that needs to be applied in every situation. I understand that we all have feelings but being part of society means that we have to have respect for everyone. I understand the attitude if you're a young man learning how to deal with people but at some point you learn how to respect people female or male. There's a time and place for everything. "going for it" every time you meet a woman is just immature and needs to be corrected.
  - Boothroid 9y ago
    I hate to pick on your language but corrected sounds a bit scary, like you would favour having Saudi style morality police walking about.
    - mikestew 9y ago
      Think of it more like whacking an unneutered dog on the snout with a newspaper. Beside, I took his language just fine without envisioning the Stasi watching your every move.
      - Boothroid 9y ago
        Well it's a comical image and if the context were someone dry humping someone else's leg then perhaps I might agree on the remedy.
      - DKnoll 9y ago
        That's animal abuse. Don't hit your pets.
- msla 9y ago
  I indulge in precisely as much assholery as I want: Zero. If you want to indulge in more, that's sad, but don't project that desire onto anyone else.
- gdulli 9y ago
  > Here's the thing: for men being decent requires effort Here's the thing: this is called projection. You're speaking for yourself, not men in general.
- davidreiss 9y ago
  > Here's the thing: for men being decent requires effort Wow. That's blatant sexist bigotry. Can you imagine if someone said the same thing about women and what the reaction on HN would be?
alexandercrohde 9y ago
Seems like a tough problem (if you consider it a problem). The unfortunate reality of a power-imbalance is that those who are giving out their expertise expect something in return (ROI, promotion, attention/validation, sex). I don't think what this guy did was even slightly morally wrong, but I would say it sounds unprofessional trying to milk your social status and social capital for physical affection. But then again, so is hopping to the press because you found 1 sleazy man out there and trying to milk the cultural moment for a few views. (not that one cancels the other)
- foldr 9y ago
  Exploiting a power imbalance to get sex is in fact morally wrong.
  - Boothroid 9y ago
    Is exploiting a sex imbalance to get power morally wrong? Yet women do this all the time, and there are no laws against it, in fact in some ways our culture celebrates it. I think you have to be very very careful when you start labelling things as moral or otherwise.
    - foldr 9y ago
      >Is exploiting a sex imbalance to get power morally wrong? Not to nearly the same extent, no. If someone has power over you and you refuse them sex, they could potentially do you all kinds of harm. If someone is very sexually attractive but has no power over you, then the worst that they can do is leave you a bit sexually frustrated. In other words, being offered sex with strings by an attractive person is hardly as bad as being threatened by a powerful person. >I think you have to be very very careful when you start labelling things as moral or otherwise. Behavior that is clearly wrong is clearly wrong. The danger lies in not calling it out and allowing it to become normalized.
      - Boothroid 9y ago
        Ah but come now, sexual attractiveness is a form of power! And in fact one of the greatest; men will fight and die for sex with women they desire. On the question of morality I stick to my guns: I think we are all tempted from time to time to ascend to our high horse and start declaiming of our righteousness, but my question to you would be: are you really so pure of morals that there are none that might find fault with you, given the chance? I'm also struck by the stridency of some of the statements I'm reading on HN. I wonder if this is a cultural thing as to my British ears they sound almost comically absolutist. Perhaps in Europe this kind of forceful speech is less fashionable?
Cozumel 9y ago
Business relationships take place within a business context, email, meetings etc where both parties are pretty clear on intent. She messaged him on Facebook, that's not a professional environment, it's social. He took it as such, his messages weren't inappropriate. Labelling it as 'sexism' is a little much, it's normal human interaction.
- dfryer 9y ago
  She messaged him on Facebook after finding him through a Facebook group dedicated to entrepreneurship. If we grant that facebook is a more casual environment, for the sake of argument, his line of questioning should have ended at "are you single"! I don't see how her intent could have been more clear.
  - ben_jones 9y ago
    Furthermore the Facebook platform (lets include Instagram, Whatsapp, etc) has become an "everything" platform for many individuals both young and old. Family, news, everything is on there. In the absence of clear intent the expected behavior should be not to make such drastic assumptions as sexual interest...
- api_or_ipa 9y ago
  Who seriously jumps from business into asking, in rapid succession, a persons age, relationship status and details about sexual orientation? These are personal questions: they don't correlate to success in any meaningful way and frankly, are none of anyone else's concern.
farunen 9y ago
Regarding the difference between men and woman. If a man was hit upon inappropriately, he wouldn't have felt the need to blast it out to the whole Internet.

29 points by danielrmay 9y ago

Here's the thing: for men being decent requires effort - especially online where the risk/reward ration of being a douchebag seems so tantalizingly < 1. That's obviously changing because doing stuff like this outside the confines of dating sites is becoming much riskier. IMO that's a good thing. I think men will always have to fight the urge to not "go for it" with women they find attractive. In a way, we're kinda hard-wired to do that. That doesn't mean that we can't or shouldn't fight the urge and be decent to women - especially now that women everywhere are speaking up and letting us know how this kind of behavior makes them feel. Addendum: The first reactions to my post are pretty negative. I can see why (over-generalization) but on-balance I don't feel like my post is negative. The core message is - be decent. If the volume of women's complaints are a measure, I'd venture to say there are a lot of men out there that struggle to do so. If you're not one of those guys- awesome . But a lot of dudes are and the first step to getting them to treat women well is to vocalize the expectation that they do so and maybe while we're at it, not trying to shame them into decency by pointing out how awesome you are and, by contrast, what horrible human beings they are for having unacceptable feelings.

Analemma_ 9y ago
> Here's the thing: for men being decent requires effort > I think men will always have to fight the urge to not "go for it" with women they find attractive. For you, maybe. Not for me, and not for a lot of men. Please don't typical-mind-fallacy the rest of us who don't need to expend effort to not be a douchebag.
- cloakandswagger 9y ago
  Serious post: It's possible you have low testosterone levels. Annual testosterone checks are an important medical precaution for men, as decreased levels can be caused by serious medical conditions.
  - mikestew 9y ago
    If I'm not a raging douchebag, I might be low on testosterone? I'm sure that's not what you meant, but that's how I'm reading in light of the original comment. Serious question to a serious post: do you have anything more concrete on which to base one's decision to get checked?
  - noncoml 9y ago
    You came to this conclusion because he said he doesn't have the urge to "go for it" when he sees a female he finds attractive? Not cool dude :D
  - dfraser992 9y ago
    I logged in just so I could tell the parent commenter off... Then I got distracted writing up a reply to someone about the Damore memo, which referenced how 'conservatives' seem obsessed with biology and base all their nonsense on a simplistic understanding of such. And now this guy.... I have higher than average testosterone levels, always have, and I'm 48 now. And I wouldn't do something this stupid - it is all about context. And understanding how women operate (duh). If someone messaged me asking for tech related advice, I'd freely give it and not try to do something out of the psychosocial boundary lines. If the interaction develops, then you and her are starting a relationship (generic use of the word). Time goes on, you meet at some conference etc... then you can appropriately gauge what your chances are and possibly will have more of a chance b/c 1) you have shown you're not an idiot and 2) women control the personal sphere of life - they grok relationships better. Play by their rules (ish, sort of) and things go much better. Dumbasses don't understand the dance that goes on. This guy's behavior is exactly equivalent to asking every woman at a bar if they want to fuck. The ones who say yes are the ones more likely to have daddy issues etc and no one in their right mind deliberately goes down that road except for douchebags
- alistproducer2 9y ago
  Its pretty obvious to all that a generalization is just that. By definition it doesn't include the entire population. The urge to hit on a woman you find attractive doesn't make anyone a doucebag - it makes them a straight/bi male. Not all of us, but a pretty good chunk. And to be clear I'm not including egregious things like unsolicited dick pics as "hitting on a woman." But good for you if you've never wanted to let a woman know you were interested while in conversation with her. How saintly of you to never have such a lurid thought.
  - dkh99 9y ago
    > How saintly of you to never have such a lurid thought. Some people--a lot of people--just don't have those thoughts. That doesn't make them better or worse than people who do; both can do good, or harmful things. I think the point of GP's comment was that there are many of people out there who simply don't feel that way. There are a lot of ways that might play out: they might not be attracted to others until someone is attracted to them; they might be attracted, but have no automatic desire to turn that into action/hitting on people; they might not be attracted to others period, et cetera. > The urge to hit on a woman you find attractive ... makes [you] a straight/bi male You're still assuming the two go hand in hand. Your impressions might be confirmation/selection bias: people who don't have the urge to hit on people they find attractive are going to be less obvious to you (insofar as they are competition for people you find attractive), and are also likely less inclined to jump into public discussions on the subject, given that a lack of sexual aggression is, in many demographics/situations, a basis for shaming. Edit: punctuation.
    - alistproducer2 9y ago
      >people who don't have the urge to hit on people they find attractive are going to be less... No, I'm listening to women. I'm watching the cat call videos. There are lots of guys out there that have these thoughts. What percentage they are? I don't know and don't really care because it doesn't matter. They exist. Period. Saying as much doesn't harm anyone. Not saying so does. My original message stands; if you feel like being an asshole to a woman, resist it - be decent.
  - 9y ago
- ericmcer 9y ago
  Procreation only comes behind not dying in our list of biological prerogatives. Avoiding being a "douchebag" involves controlling these impulses. Suggesting men have a sex-drive is a not an example of the typical-mind-fallacy.
  - dkh99 9y ago
    If--if--I grant your premise that biological perspectives are significant in this discussion, I think that procreation and long-term reproductive goals aren't the same things at all. Procreation is short-term; create the possibility of a lineage and you've "succeeded". Humans don't work like that; we are eusocial animals with complex communities; "impregnate and move on" is not an evolutionary tendency we embody. That said, your premise is invalid. Biological prerogatives are not significant in the not-even-slightly-sexually-premised interactions between members of the 21st century tech community with career motivations and numerous other factors at work that evolution did not prepare them for. Saying that "biological prerogatives" are a significant factor here is like saying that a lemur let loose in a supermarket would be drawn to product branding based on how likely a given brand was to help the lemur secure a mate--too many factors have changed for simple parallels to be drawn. Edit: spelling, I still keep forgetting this isn't markdown.
    - ericmcer 9y ago
      Biological perspectives are relevant in any discussion involving human behavior. We are biological organisms, our mood and behavior are governed by chemical responses in our brain. I guess we are in tech so we should be able to suppress all the impulses, desires, and feelings that have been carved into us over hundreds of thousands of years of evolution.
dragonwriter 9y ago
> for men being decent requires effort As a man, I am offended by this stereotype. It takes no more effort to not make sexual advances in an inappropriate context (even when there is an attractive woman around) than it does to not assault and rob vulnerable passers-by on the street. Which, I suppose I now must add for clarity, also does not take any effort worthy of the name.
- ben_jones 9y ago
  You could argue that the hyper sexualization of our culture trains both sexes to act in ways that are indecent. For example, men are taught to always make the first move and to be strong and persistent. How many romance movies involve a women rebuffing a man only for the man to keep trying until he "wins her over"? When someone misreads signals - as we all do, this conditioning can cause someones behavior to become creepy, inappropriate, or worse. Thus because we are conditioned to sometimes be indecent, it does in some circumstances require effort to override it.
WheelsAtLarge 9y ago
Where does just plain respect for people come in? Attractive or not there's just some basic decency that needs to be applied in every situation. I understand that we all have feelings but being part of society means that we have to have respect for everyone. I understand the attitude if you're a young man learning how to deal with people but at some point you learn how to respect people female or male. There's a time and place for everything. "going for it" every time you meet a woman is just immature and needs to be corrected.
- Boothroid 9y ago
  I hate to pick on your language but corrected sounds a bit scary, like you would favour having Saudi style morality police walking about.
  - mikestew 9y ago
    Think of it more like whacking an unneutered dog on the snout with a newspaper. Beside, I took his language just fine without envisioning the Stasi watching your every move.
    - Boothroid 9y ago
      Well it's a comical image and if the context were someone dry humping someone else's leg then perhaps I might agree on the remedy.
    - DKnoll 9y ago
      That's animal abuse. Don't hit your pets.
msla 9y ago
I indulge in precisely as much assholery as I want: Zero. If you want to indulge in more, that's sad, but don't project that desire onto anyone else.
gdulli 9y ago
> Here's the thing: for men being decent requires effort Here's the thing: this is called projection. You're speaking for yourself, not men in general.
davidreiss 9y ago
> Here's the thing: for men being decent requires effort Wow. That's blatant sexist bigotry. Can you imagine if someone said the same thing about women and what the reaction on HN would be?

alexandercrohde 9y ago

Seems like a tough problem (if you consider it a problem). The unfortunate reality of a power-imbalance is that those who are giving out their expertise expect something in return (ROI, promotion, attention/validation, sex). I don't think what this guy did was even slightly morally wrong, but I would say it sounds unprofessional trying to milk your social status and social capital for physical affection. But then again, so is hopping to the press because you found 1 sleazy man out there and trying to milk the cultural moment for a few views. (not that one cancels the other)

foldr 9y ago
Exploiting a power imbalance to get sex is in fact morally wrong.
- Boothroid 9y ago
  Is exploiting a sex imbalance to get power morally wrong? Yet women do this all the time, and there are no laws against it, in fact in some ways our culture celebrates it. I think you have to be very very careful when you start labelling things as moral or otherwise.
  - foldr 9y ago
    >Is exploiting a sex imbalance to get power morally wrong? Not to nearly the same extent, no. If someone has power over you and you refuse them sex, they could potentially do you all kinds of harm. If someone is very sexually attractive but has no power over you, then the worst that they can do is leave you a bit sexually frustrated. In other words, being offered sex with strings by an attractive person is hardly as bad as being threatened by a powerful person. >I think you have to be very very careful when you start labelling things as moral or otherwise. Behavior that is clearly wrong is clearly wrong. The danger lies in not calling it out and allowing it to become normalized.
    - Boothroid 9y ago
      Ah but come now, sexual attractiveness is a form of power! And in fact one of the greatest; men will fight and die for sex with women they desire. On the question of morality I stick to my guns: I think we are all tempted from time to time to ascend to our high horse and start declaiming of our righteousness, but my question to you would be: are you really so pure of morals that there are none that might find fault with you, given the chance? I'm also struck by the stridency of some of the statements I'm reading on HN. I wonder if this is a cultural thing as to my British ears they sound almost comically absolutist. Perhaps in Europe this kind of forceful speech is less fashionable?

Cozumel 9y ago

Business relationships take place within a business context, email, meetings etc where both parties are pretty clear on intent. She messaged him on Facebook, that's not a professional environment, it's social. He took it as such, his messages weren't inappropriate. Labelling it as 'sexism' is a little much, it's normal human interaction.

dfryer 9y ago
She messaged him on Facebook after finding him through a Facebook group dedicated to entrepreneurship. If we grant that facebook is a more casual environment, for the sake of argument, his line of questioning should have ended at "are you single"! I don't see how her intent could have been more clear.
- ben_jones 9y ago
  Furthermore the Facebook platform (lets include Instagram, Whatsapp, etc) has become an "everything" platform for many individuals both young and old. Family, news, everything is on there. In the absence of clear intent the expected behavior should be not to make such drastic assumptions as sexual interest...
api_or_ipa 9y ago
Who seriously jumps from business into asking, in rapid succession, a persons age, relationship status and details about sexual orientation? These are personal questions: they don't correlate to success in any meaningful way and frankly, are none of anyone else's concern.

farunen 9y ago

Regarding the difference between men and woman. If a man was hit upon inappropriately, he wouldn't have felt the need to blast it out to the whole Internet.