6 ms·

If you think the polarization of politics contributes to violence, it seems like a fair point. Honestly, it's probably too soon to be making political points.

If you think the polarization of politics contributes to violence, it seems like a fair point. Honestly, it's probably too soon to be making political points. But then people are looking for political wins in the aftermath (resignations and shunning I guess?), so I don't see how that sort of thing is on the table. Seems like uneven expectations about what decent people should do in the face of tragedy.

jacquesm 9y ago
> If you think the polarization of politics contributes to violence, it seems like a fair point. I'm sure it does. Now, who exactly is doing the polarizing here? > Honestly, it's probably too soon to be making political points. On the contrary, it is probably way too late. Now the question is how much damage will be done before the landslide is arrested. My sense of that: all bets are off. > But then people are looking for political wins in the aftermath (resignations and shunning I guess?), so I don't see how that sort of thing is on the table. Giving up on the administration is not a political win, it is damage control. > Seems like uneven expectations about what decent people should do in the face of tragedy. It depends on your definition of 'decent' how you read that.
- humanrebar 9y ago
  > Giving up on the administration is not a political win, it is damage control. I gave up on Trump in the winter of 2015/2016. I'm way ahead of you there. I'm just saying people have valid thoughts (polarization in general leads to t his) that might be considered premature. But if we're going to be evenhanded, angry left-wing people need to honor a cool off period for a while. Keep in mind that moderates who dislike Trump from the start can fairly blame left-wing shenanigans, at least partly, for the rise of Trump. Lumping them in with racists and downvoting them isn't healthy dialogue.
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    If you gave up on Trump then that means that you at some point held him closer than you do today. I always thought he was a blow-hard and I'm terribly disappointed that someone like him can be elevated to any position of power. I really hoped that America was wiser than this. > Keep in mind that moderates who dislike Trump from the start can fairly blame left-wing shenanigans, at least partly, for the rise of Trump. Yes, but it would be a fig-leaf. A large number of them are pretty much on the record as being pissed off that a black guy became president. America really has a race problem even if on paper it is all pretty good. Especially the heartland. Denying this is allowing it room to grow. > Lumping them in with racists and downvoting them isn't healthy dialogue. Well, if you purposefully skew the weighting of the responses of the various parties to the point where you feel the violence on the 'left' is the equal of the violence on the 'right' then you're part of the problem. It becomes an 'us versus them' thing and staking out a position in such a polarized environment is something that you should do with great care. I'm not aware of any left leaning politician that has tacitly or openly condoned any violence on the left and some (definitely not all, for instance the Scalise shooting) was a direct response to other violence. To toss that all onto the same heap is disingenuous at best. If you want 'healthy dialogue' you're going to have to come to terms with inherent biases first. But that's hard to do.
    - humanrebar 9y ago
      I moved from "everyone deserves to be heard out" to "this guy is a bully and a bad person in many other ways". It was clear when he made fun of a man's disability and just grew from there. To be fair to the GOP, Trump basically did a hostile takeover with a plurality of the vote on the right against a very fractured field. I'm not advocating for a pissing contest over who is more violent. I'm advocating for people to treat each other decently even if they disagree. I'm advocating for rational dialogue. I think this isn't the moment to win points for the left. Partly because I think the case isn't strong, but also because I don't see it solving the real problem of divisive American politics. The left can't "win" enough to forever banish Trumps from power. It only causes escalation, at least so far.
      - jacquesm 9y ago
        > I moved from "everyone deserves to be heard out" to "this guy is a bully and a bad person in many other ways". It was clear when he made fun of a man's disability and just grew from there. Ok, I thought it was rather very visible earlier on, such as before he even decided to run for president. > To be fair to the GOP, Trump basically did a hostile takeover with a plurality of the vote on the right against a very fractured field. They did not have to nominate him. > I'm not advocating for a pissing contest over who is more violent. Ok > I'm advocating for people to treat each other decently even if they disagree. I'm advocating for rational dialogue. It's pretty hard to have a rational dialogue when one side of the dialogue discards all facts as 'fake', brings their own 'alternative facts' to the table, tacitly and openly supports violence against their opposition and in general does whatever possible to polarize the society they are nominally supposed to lead. > I think this isn't the moment to win points for the left. This stopped being about 'points' long ago, this is about the future of a country. > Partly because I think the case isn't strong, but also because I don't see it solving the real problem of divisive American politics. Agreed, that problem starts at the top and it will take a serious amount of soul searching for the GOP to decide how far they will let this slide before they will put a stop to it. Chances are that it is already past the point where it can be arrested anyway but maybe there is still an outside chance the problem can be contained before it spills over. > The left can't "win" enough to forever banish Trumps from power. It only causes escalation, at least so far. This is not about left versus right, if that's your frame of reference today then you really should wake up and start paying attention, the damage to the United States as an institution both at home and abroad is immense.
  - zimpenfish 9y ago
    > moderates who dislike Trump from the start can fairly blame left-wing shenanigans, at least partly, for the rise of Trump What? The rise of Trump was entirely down to the GOP - for years - stoking both racial and anti-liberal resentment with only one goal - to dismantle anything Obama touched.
    - humanrebar 9y ago
      Which of those people I listed stoked racial resentment? Can you provide citations? And I think you're ignoring a lot of things the left has been up to. The IRS scandal was a big deal, for example.
      - croon 9y ago
        > And I think you're ignoring a lot of things the left has been up to. The IRS scandal was a big deal, for example. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRS_targeting_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRS_targeting_controversy > The Republican majority on the House Oversight Committee issued a report, which concluded that although some liberal groups were selected for additional review, the scrutiny that these groups received did not amount to targeting when compared to the greater scrutiny received by conservative groups. The report was criticized by the committee's Democratic minority, which said that the report ignored evidence that the IRS used keywords to identify both liberal and conservative groups. > In January 2014, the FBI told Fox News that its investigation had found no evidence so far warranting the filing of federal criminal charges in connection with the controversy, as it had not found any evidence of "enemy hunting", and that the investigation continued. On October 23, 2015, the Justice Department declared that no criminal charges would be filed. Meanwhile: http://thehill.com/policy/cybersecurity/346544-dreamhost-claims-doj-requesting-info-on-visitors-to-anti-trump-website http://thehill.com/policy/cybersecurity/346544-dreamhost-cla... Classic misguided whataboutism. Fox News did it again.
        humanrebar 9y ago
        There are plenty other examples. I just picked one. The Damore and Eich cases. The professor at the University of Missouri. The assault of Charles Murray.
  - throwawaymanbot 9y ago
    I think "right-wing" people like to blame everyone else for bad things that happen. Its so infantile. (which fits the right wing psych profile) Its YOUR fault the KKK exists. Its YOUR fault that the alt-Right exists. its Hilarys fault, its BLM fault, its Obamas fault. Its immigrants fault etc etc ad nauseum. Not ONE "right-wing" person can say, hey, maybe it is my/our fault. Losers.
    - zimpenfish 9y ago
      > Not ONE "right-wing" person can say, hey, maybe it is my/our fault. Losers. If they were capable of that level of reflection and self-awareness, they wouldn't be right-wing.

jacquesm 9y ago

> If you think the polarization of politics contributes to violence, it seems like a fair point. I'm sure it does. Now, who exactly is doing the polarizing here? > Honestly, it's probably too soon to be making political points. On the contrary, it is probably way too late. Now the question is how much damage will be done before the landslide is arrested. My sense of that: all bets are off. > But then people are looking for political wins in the aftermath (resignations and shunning I guess?), so I don't see how that sort of thing is on the table. Giving up on the administration is not a political win, it is damage control. > Seems like uneven expectations about what decent people should do in the face of tragedy. It depends on your definition of 'decent' how you read that.

humanrebar 9y ago
> Giving up on the administration is not a political win, it is damage control. I gave up on Trump in the winter of 2015/2016. I'm way ahead of you there. I'm just saying people have valid thoughts (polarization in general leads to t his) that might be considered premature. But if we're going to be evenhanded, angry left-wing people need to honor a cool off period for a while. Keep in mind that moderates who dislike Trump from the start can fairly blame left-wing shenanigans, at least partly, for the rise of Trump. Lumping them in with racists and downvoting them isn't healthy dialogue.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  If you gave up on Trump then that means that you at some point held him closer than you do today. I always thought he was a blow-hard and I'm terribly disappointed that someone like him can be elevated to any position of power. I really hoped that America was wiser than this. > Keep in mind that moderates who dislike Trump from the start can fairly blame left-wing shenanigans, at least partly, for the rise of Trump. Yes, but it would be a fig-leaf. A large number of them are pretty much on the record as being pissed off that a black guy became president. America really has a race problem even if on paper it is all pretty good. Especially the heartland. Denying this is allowing it room to grow. > Lumping them in with racists and downvoting them isn't healthy dialogue. Well, if you purposefully skew the weighting of the responses of the various parties to the point where you feel the violence on the 'left' is the equal of the violence on the 'right' then you're part of the problem. It becomes an 'us versus them' thing and staking out a position in such a polarized environment is something that you should do with great care. I'm not aware of any left leaning politician that has tacitly or openly condoned any violence on the left and some (definitely not all, for instance the Scalise shooting) was a direct response to other violence. To toss that all onto the same heap is disingenuous at best. If you want 'healthy dialogue' you're going to have to come to terms with inherent biases first. But that's hard to do.
  - humanrebar 9y ago
    I moved from "everyone deserves to be heard out" to "this guy is a bully and a bad person in many other ways". It was clear when he made fun of a man's disability and just grew from there. To be fair to the GOP, Trump basically did a hostile takeover with a plurality of the vote on the right against a very fractured field. I'm not advocating for a pissing contest over who is more violent. I'm advocating for people to treat each other decently even if they disagree. I'm advocating for rational dialogue. I think this isn't the moment to win points for the left. Partly because I think the case isn't strong, but also because I don't see it solving the real problem of divisive American politics. The left can't "win" enough to forever banish Trumps from power. It only causes escalation, at least so far.
    - jacquesm 9y ago
      > I moved from "everyone deserves to be heard out" to "this guy is a bully and a bad person in many other ways". It was clear when he made fun of a man's disability and just grew from there. Ok, I thought it was rather very visible earlier on, such as before he even decided to run for president. > To be fair to the GOP, Trump basically did a hostile takeover with a plurality of the vote on the right against a very fractured field. They did not have to nominate him. > I'm not advocating for a pissing contest over who is more violent. Ok > I'm advocating for people to treat each other decently even if they disagree. I'm advocating for rational dialogue. It's pretty hard to have a rational dialogue when one side of the dialogue discards all facts as 'fake', brings their own 'alternative facts' to the table, tacitly and openly supports violence against their opposition and in general does whatever possible to polarize the society they are nominally supposed to lead. > I think this isn't the moment to win points for the left. This stopped being about 'points' long ago, this is about the future of a country. > Partly because I think the case isn't strong, but also because I don't see it solving the real problem of divisive American politics. Agreed, that problem starts at the top and it will take a serious amount of soul searching for the GOP to decide how far they will let this slide before they will put a stop to it. Chances are that it is already past the point where it can be arrested anyway but maybe there is still an outside chance the problem can be contained before it spills over. > The left can't "win" enough to forever banish Trumps from power. It only causes escalation, at least so far. This is not about left versus right, if that's your frame of reference today then you really should wake up and start paying attention, the damage to the United States as an institution both at home and abroad is immense.
- zimpenfish 9y ago
  > moderates who dislike Trump from the start can fairly blame left-wing shenanigans, at least partly, for the rise of Trump What? The rise of Trump was entirely down to the GOP - for years - stoking both racial and anti-liberal resentment with only one goal - to dismantle anything Obama touched.
  - humanrebar 9y ago
    Which of those people I listed stoked racial resentment? Can you provide citations? And I think you're ignoring a lot of things the left has been up to. The IRS scandal was a big deal, for example.
    - croon 9y ago
      > And I think you're ignoring a lot of things the left has been up to. The IRS scandal was a big deal, for example. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRS_targeting_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRS_targeting_controversy > The Republican majority on the House Oversight Committee issued a report, which concluded that although some liberal groups were selected for additional review, the scrutiny that these groups received did not amount to targeting when compared to the greater scrutiny received by conservative groups. The report was criticized by the committee's Democratic minority, which said that the report ignored evidence that the IRS used keywords to identify both liberal and conservative groups. > In January 2014, the FBI told Fox News that its investigation had found no evidence so far warranting the filing of federal criminal charges in connection with the controversy, as it had not found any evidence of "enemy hunting", and that the investigation continued. On October 23, 2015, the Justice Department declared that no criminal charges would be filed. Meanwhile: http://thehill.com/policy/cybersecurity/346544-dreamhost-claims-doj-requesting-info-on-visitors-to-anti-trump-website http://thehill.com/policy/cybersecurity/346544-dreamhost-cla... Classic misguided whataboutism. Fox News did it again.
      - humanrebar 9y ago
        There are plenty other examples. I just picked one. The Damore and Eich cases. The professor at the University of Missouri. The assault of Charles Murray.
- throwawaymanbot 9y ago
  I think "right-wing" people like to blame everyone else for bad things that happen. Its so infantile. (which fits the right wing psych profile) Its YOUR fault the KKK exists. Its YOUR fault that the alt-Right exists. its Hilarys fault, its BLM fault, its Obamas fault. Its immigrants fault etc etc ad nauseum. Not ONE "right-wing" person can say, hey, maybe it is my/our fault. Losers.
  - zimpenfish 9y ago
    > Not ONE "right-wing" person can say, hey, maybe it is my/our fault. Losers. If they were capable of that level of reflection and self-awareness, they wouldn't be right-wing.