6 ms·

I'm going to go ahead and say it's ok to deny the concerns of white supremacists

microcolonel 9y ago
> I'm going to go ahead and say it's ok to deny the concerns of white supremacists All of their concerns? I'm sure you realize that people don't pick up an ideology like that unless it looks like their society isn't functioning. White supremacy is an answer in search of a question, and the question need not (and ought not) be posed. We shouldn't be ignoring the concerns of the radical Communists either; that doesn't mean we all should become Communists and repeat the atrocities of Stalin. Likewise, we don't need to become National Socialists in order to ease the pains that make them turn to the ideology.
- kaden 9y ago
  >All of their concerns? Yes. >We shouldn't be ignoring the concerns of the radical Communists either; Not even remotely the same thing. Not even in the same galaxy. Not even in the same universe.
  - microcolonel 9y ago
    > Yes. I'm sure white supremacists are concerned about employment, the decline of the American manufacturing sector, and the cost of health insurance. In fact, I'm pretty sure these concerns contribute to their desire to join others who say they have the solution. > Not even remotely the same thing. Not even in the same galaxy. Not even in the same universe. Now, I'm not generally one to nickel-and-dime the deathtolls of genocidal ideologies, but I don't think you could credibly argue that in the 20th century National Socialism was more deadly than Communism. At least you'd have to concede that they are in "the same universe", or "the same galaxy". Don't use hyperbole, else all of your blood will drain instantly from your eyes.
  - cgmg 9y ago
    "Not even remotely the same thing. Not even in the same galaxy. Not even in the same universe." What do you mean? They're both totalitarian ideologies and have much in common.
    - notreallythough 9y ago
      So you agree with white supremacy because there are similarities between a specific group of communists and specific group of socialists. Fascinating.
      - cgmg 9y ago
        "So you agree with white supremacy..." You've got to be kidding me. Point out exactly where in my comment I agreed with white supremacy. I disagreed with literally one point in your comment and that means I suport white supremacy? Fascinating. Looks like you're only reading what your emotions want you to read and not what people are actually writing.
        notreallythough 9y ago
        No, I'm making a point about white supremacy and you're being pedantic about something tangentially related. It doesn't fucking matter how similar socialism is to communism when white supremacy is the outcome. The Titanic is sinking and you're arguing with me about the difference between row boats and sail boats.
        cgmg 9y ago
        You literally accused me of supporting white supremacy because I disagreed with a point you made. That shouldn't be taken lightly. At the very least you should take responsibility for your own behavior and apologize.
        notreallythough 9y ago
        My sole point in this entire thread is that white supremacy is bad regardless of source. I merely used an extreme example to show you that you were missing the forest for the trees, and you still are. I'm sorry that you're having this problem.
- epistasis 9y ago
  This sort of sophistry is a mental virus. Say what you mean, stop with the mealy-mouthed "whataboutism" and vague questions. There are no communists involved in this discussion. Nobody calls Nazis "National Socialists" unless they're trying to blame the nebulous "left" for the evils of the Nazis. We've been through these arguments since the 1940s. Karl Popper's view of the Paradox of Tolerance [1] >Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. If we want an open society that permits maximal freedom, we can not permit those who wish to destroy freedom to override those who wish for freedom. The white nationalist movement includes people who explicitly endorse fascism and "throwing into ovens" those who exercised their free speech. [2] Stop defending this evil. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance [2] http://www.inforum.com/opinion/letters/4311880-letter-family-denounces-teffts-racist-rhetoric-and-actions http://www.inforum.com/opinion/letters/4311880-letter-family...
  - kaden 9y ago
    Just for the record, this is in his bio: >you can be accosted for publicly engaging a wrongthinker. I don't think he cares about rationality, let alone having the fortitude to say what he means. "Everyone else is wrong and when I get called an asshole it's clearly because it's 1984."
    - epistasis 9y ago
      I agree that he's probably an impossible case. He's too arrogant and far too emotionally weak if he thinks public rebuke of ideas is "accosting." But we are in a public space, and the commonly-endorsed tactic of ignoring trolls has the unfortunate effect of letting this sort of pablum spread. I care about not letting stupid ideas and weak thinking persist without the easy counterarguments. When I say "mental virus" I really mean "mental virus." It's a sickness that only reason can defeat.
    - microcolonel 9y ago
- notreallythough 9y ago
  Don't pull that alt-right logic-gymnast bullshit where suddenly we're calling nazis "national socialists" and all socialism are the same. It's fine if you've convinced yourself that you can't smell your own bullshit, but don't ask us to be party to it.
- threatofrain 9y ago
  I think you'd be better received if you didn't speak so cryptically. What do you mean an answer in search of a question? Do you want us to meditate on that like a Buddhist koan? You're implying a hidden knowledge of just what critical concerns people are ignoring, but you won't tell us.
  - microcolonel 9y ago
    > I think you'd be better received if you didn't speak so cryptically. What do you mean an answer in search of a question? Do you want us to meditate on that like a Buddhist koan? Sorry if I was unclear. I meant to make the same statement as the first, in a different form. I hoped that providing two versions of the same statement, folks would have a better chance of understanding what I meant. Once more: Nobody just chooses one day to become a white supremacist. Nobody is born a white supremacist. Nobody in their right mind would identify as a white supremacist without good reason, because doing so is mortally dangerous. Clearly there's something wrong in their life for them to accept an ideological solution as severe and impractical as white supremacy. That is, they have a serious question, which the answer of white supremacy has found. > You're implying a hidden knowledge of just what critical concerns people are ignoring, but you won't tell us. I suspect their concerns are pedestrian: unsatisfactory employment (or lack thereof), the cost of health care, security, the uncertainty of demographic shifts (especially the shrinking proportion of their own race, and the growing relevance of race in public discourse), the moral conditions for their children (though largely an unfounded concern, given how safe America is).
    - notreallythough 9y ago
      so you're saying that I should be responsible for the mental well being of an adult who thinks eradicating entire races of people will solve all of their problems
    - mnm1 9y ago
      Many people are concerned about jobs, healthcare, and security but only fucking nazis and other white supremacist pieces of shit are concerned about "the uncertainty of demographic shifts (especially the shrinking proportion of their own race, and the growing relevance of race in public discourse)." That's not a normal concern and choosing to become a white supremacist because you have such concerns is no excuse for these lowlifes. These people choose hate and no amount of apologizing for their disgusting choices is ever going to make that ok. They could choose to talk to other people who are different than them and realize that good people come in all colors, nationalities, etc. But no, they choose hate and they choose violence. Fuck them. We've had hundreds of years of this shit all over the world but especially in the U.S. and finally people are standing up to this shit en masse and refusing to accept it. It's about fucking time to stop being tolerant of these hateful, violent fucks. Society is slowly moving on.

> I'm going to go ahead and say it's ok to deny the concerns of white supremacists All of their concerns? I'm sure you realize that people don't pick up an ideology like that unless it looks like their society isn't functioning. White supremacy is an answer in search of a question, and the question need not (and ought not) be posed. We shouldn't be ignoring the concerns of the radical Communists either; that doesn't mean we all should become Communists and repeat the atrocities of Stalin. Likewise, we don't need to become National Socialists in order to ease the pains that make them turn to the ideology.

kaden 9y ago
>All of their concerns? Yes. >We shouldn't be ignoring the concerns of the radical Communists either; Not even remotely the same thing. Not even in the same galaxy. Not even in the same universe.
- microcolonel 9y ago
  > Yes. I'm sure white supremacists are concerned about employment, the decline of the American manufacturing sector, and the cost of health insurance. In fact, I'm pretty sure these concerns contribute to their desire to join others who say they have the solution. > Not even remotely the same thing. Not even in the same galaxy. Not even in the same universe. Now, I'm not generally one to nickel-and-dime the deathtolls of genocidal ideologies, but I don't think you could credibly argue that in the 20th century National Socialism was more deadly than Communism. At least you'd have to concede that they are in "the same universe", or "the same galaxy". Don't use hyperbole, else all of your blood will drain instantly from your eyes.
- cgmg 9y ago
  "Not even remotely the same thing. Not even in the same galaxy. Not even in the same universe." What do you mean? They're both totalitarian ideologies and have much in common.
  - notreallythough 9y ago
    So you agree with white supremacy because there are similarities between a specific group of communists and specific group of socialists. Fascinating.
    - cgmg 9y ago
      "So you agree with white supremacy..." You've got to be kidding me. Point out exactly where in my comment I agreed with white supremacy. I disagreed with literally one point in your comment and that means I suport white supremacy? Fascinating. Looks like you're only reading what your emotions want you to read and not what people are actually writing.
      - notreallythough 9y ago
        No, I'm making a point about white supremacy and you're being pedantic about something tangentially related. It doesn't fucking matter how similar socialism is to communism when white supremacy is the outcome. The Titanic is sinking and you're arguing with me about the difference between row boats and sail boats.
        cgmg 9y ago
        You literally accused me of supporting white supremacy because I disagreed with a point you made. That shouldn't be taken lightly. At the very least you should take responsibility for your own behavior and apologize.
        notreallythough 9y ago
        My sole point in this entire thread is that white supremacy is bad regardless of source. I merely used an extreme example to show you that you were missing the forest for the trees, and you still are. I'm sorry that you're having this problem.
epistasis 9y ago
This sort of sophistry is a mental virus. Say what you mean, stop with the mealy-mouthed "whataboutism" and vague questions. There are no communists involved in this discussion. Nobody calls Nazis "National Socialists" unless they're trying to blame the nebulous "left" for the evils of the Nazis. We've been through these arguments since the 1940s. Karl Popper's view of the Paradox of Tolerance [1] >Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. If we want an open society that permits maximal freedom, we can not permit those who wish to destroy freedom to override those who wish for freedom. The white nationalist movement includes people who explicitly endorse fascism and "throwing into ovens" those who exercised their free speech. [2] Stop defending this evil. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance [2] http://www.inforum.com/opinion/letters/4311880-letter-family-denounces-teffts-racist-rhetoric-and-actions http://www.inforum.com/opinion/letters/4311880-letter-family...
- kaden 9y ago
  Just for the record, this is in his bio: >you can be accosted for publicly engaging a wrongthinker. I don't think he cares about rationality, let alone having the fortitude to say what he means. "Everyone else is wrong and when I get called an asshole it's clearly because it's 1984."
  - epistasis 9y ago
    I agree that he's probably an impossible case. He's too arrogant and far too emotionally weak if he thinks public rebuke of ideas is "accosting." But we are in a public space, and the commonly-endorsed tactic of ignoring trolls has the unfortunate effect of letting this sort of pablum spread. I care about not letting stupid ideas and weak thinking persist without the easy counterarguments. When I say "mental virus" I really mean "mental virus." It's a sickness that only reason can defeat.
  - microcolonel 9y ago
notreallythough 9y ago
Don't pull that alt-right logic-gymnast bullshit where suddenly we're calling nazis "national socialists" and all socialism are the same. It's fine if you've convinced yourself that you can't smell your own bullshit, but don't ask us to be party to it.
threatofrain 9y ago
I think you'd be better received if you didn't speak so cryptically. What do you mean an answer in search of a question? Do you want us to meditate on that like a Buddhist koan? You're implying a hidden knowledge of just what critical concerns people are ignoring, but you won't tell us.
- microcolonel 9y ago
  > I think you'd be better received if you didn't speak so cryptically. What do you mean an answer in search of a question? Do you want us to meditate on that like a Buddhist koan? Sorry if I was unclear. I meant to make the same statement as the first, in a different form. I hoped that providing two versions of the same statement, folks would have a better chance of understanding what I meant. Once more: Nobody just chooses one day to become a white supremacist. Nobody is born a white supremacist. Nobody in their right mind would identify as a white supremacist without good reason, because doing so is mortally dangerous. Clearly there's something wrong in their life for them to accept an ideological solution as severe and impractical as white supremacy. That is, they have a serious question, which the answer of white supremacy has found. > You're implying a hidden knowledge of just what critical concerns people are ignoring, but you won't tell us. I suspect their concerns are pedestrian: unsatisfactory employment (or lack thereof), the cost of health care, security, the uncertainty of demographic shifts (especially the shrinking proportion of their own race, and the growing relevance of race in public discourse), the moral conditions for their children (though largely an unfounded concern, given how safe America is).
  - notreallythough 9y ago
    so you're saying that I should be responsible for the mental well being of an adult who thinks eradicating entire races of people will solve all of their problems
  - mnm1 9y ago
    Many people are concerned about jobs, healthcare, and security but only fucking nazis and other white supremacist pieces of shit are concerned about "the uncertainty of demographic shifts (especially the shrinking proportion of their own race, and the growing relevance of race in public discourse)." That's not a normal concern and choosing to become a white supremacist because you have such concerns is no excuse for these lowlifes. These people choose hate and no amount of apologizing for their disgusting choices is ever going to make that ok. They could choose to talk to other people who are different than them and realize that good people come in all colors, nationalities, etc. But no, they choose hate and they choose violence. Fuck them. We've had hundreds of years of this shit all over the world but especially in the U.S. and finally people are standing up to this shit en masse and refusing to accept it. It's about fucking time to stop being tolerant of these hateful, violent fucks. Society is slowly moving on.