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I understand people wanting to keep what they consider part of their history. If it was just for the pure symbolism or credentials of the person represented, s

I understand people wanting to keep what they consider part of their history. If it was just for the pure symbolism or credentials of the person represented, shouldn't the Seattle Lenin statue be removed too?

leereeves 9y ago
Why does Seattle have a Lenin statue?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- wyldfire 9y ago
  From [1]: > Initially installed in Czechoslovakia in 1988, the sculpture was removed after the Velvet Revolution and brought to the United States in the 1990s. > Lewis E. Carpenter, an English teacher in Poprad originally from Issaquah, Washington, found the monumental statue lying in a scrapyard ready to be sold for the price of the bronze > ... Carpenter approached the city officials with a claim that despite its current unpopularity, the sculpture was still a work of art worth preserving, and he offered to buy it for $13,000. After many bureaucratic hurdles, he finally signed a contract with the mayor on March 16, 1993. > ... the statue was cut into three pieces and shipped to the United States at a total cost of $40,000. Carpenter financed much of that via mortgaging his home. > The Carpenter family continues to seek a buyer for the statue. As of 2015 the asking price is $250,000, up from a 1996 price tag of $150,000. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Lenin,_Seattle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Lenin,_Seattle
tacomonstrous 9y ago
Lenin wasn't the proximate cause of generational misery for an entire community of Americans (and yes, I realise there is also a sizeable group of escapees from Soviet communism here, but I hope that I don't have to point out the obvious differences in scale and effect).
- leereeves 9y ago
  > the obvious differences in scale and effect What do you mean? More people were killed by communists than by Nazis.
  - tacomonstrous 9y ago
    I was explicitly talking about American communities, which is the context in which the comparison between Confederate statues and the one of Lenin arose.
    - leereeves 9y ago
      We should probably include the leaders inspired by Lenin as well, which leads to significant communities of Chinese, Vietnamese, Korean, Cuban, and other nationalities as well as the Russians. Also the Eastern Europeans who escaped the Iron Curtain, or who still had families behind it. The number of Americans whose families suffered because of Lenin and his followers is hard to count.
      - tacomonstrous 9y ago
        My thoughts: a) Lenin didn't fight wars to preserve his right to literally enslave people. b) This is still irrelevant to the issue of whether statues of Robert Lee should stand erected in public spaces.
        leereeves 9y ago
        > Lenin didn't fight wars to preserve his right to literally enslave people. Some have argued that communism enslaves everyone. > This is still irrelevant to the issue of whether statues of Robert Lee should stand erected in public spaces. Agreed, especially if the statue is privately owned, but I do wonder if groups like Antifa are calling for the owner of the Lenin statue to be fired.
- bassman9000 9y ago
  Is it because the scale of the demise he caused, or because he caused it to non-americans? If it's the former, Lenin is no saint worth a statue: http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Quotes/leninkeyquotes.htm http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Quotes/leni... If it's the latter, it's a sad example of US-centrism. By that token, <insert any other non-US dictator here> would be acceptable.
wonderbear 9y ago
That one is def in poor taste, but it is private property.
davidreiss 9y ago
Or the US flag and almost every statue in the country. A native american friend in college said the US flag represents the same thing to them that the swastika represents to jews. Should we take down all the flags? After a certain point, you have to forgive and forget and move on or society is going to break down. Especially a nation like ours filled with the unparalleled horrors. Everything from our money, our schools, our cities, etc honor a slave owner or someone who participated in the genocide of the natives. Even MLK was an abusive wife beater and we have a day named for him. Having said that, I can see the other side. A native american certainly has a lot of valid grievances when it comes to the US. I can see how a A black person doesn't want to go to a school named for a slave owner. It's hard to see how we fix things. Do we have a wholesale purging like germany did after ww2 when they removed all glorification of the nazis? How practical is that in a nation like the US? Where is the happy medium? Can a divisive issue like this ever lead to a common ground or a compromise?

leereeves 9y ago

Why does Seattle have a Lenin statue?

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
wyldfire 9y ago
From [1]: > Initially installed in Czechoslovakia in 1988, the sculpture was removed after the Velvet Revolution and brought to the United States in the 1990s. > Lewis E. Carpenter, an English teacher in Poprad originally from Issaquah, Washington, found the monumental statue lying in a scrapyard ready to be sold for the price of the bronze > ... Carpenter approached the city officials with a claim that despite its current unpopularity, the sculpture was still a work of art worth preserving, and he offered to buy it for $13,000. After many bureaucratic hurdles, he finally signed a contract with the mayor on March 16, 1993. > ... the statue was cut into three pieces and shipped to the United States at a total cost of $40,000. Carpenter financed much of that via mortgaging his home. > The Carpenter family continues to seek a buyer for the statue. As of 2015 the asking price is $250,000, up from a 1996 price tag of $150,000. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Lenin,_Seattle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Lenin,_Seattle

tacomonstrous 9y ago

Lenin wasn't the proximate cause of generational misery for an entire community of Americans (and yes, I realise there is also a sizeable group of escapees from Soviet communism here, but I hope that I don't have to point out the obvious differences in scale and effect).

leereeves 9y ago
> the obvious differences in scale and effect What do you mean? More people were killed by communists than by Nazis.
- tacomonstrous 9y ago
  I was explicitly talking about American communities, which is the context in which the comparison between Confederate statues and the one of Lenin arose.
  - leereeves 9y ago
    We should probably include the leaders inspired by Lenin as well, which leads to significant communities of Chinese, Vietnamese, Korean, Cuban, and other nationalities as well as the Russians. Also the Eastern Europeans who escaped the Iron Curtain, or who still had families behind it. The number of Americans whose families suffered because of Lenin and his followers is hard to count.
    - tacomonstrous 9y ago
      My thoughts: a) Lenin didn't fight wars to preserve his right to literally enslave people. b) This is still irrelevant to the issue of whether statues of Robert Lee should stand erected in public spaces.
      - leereeves 9y ago
        > Lenin didn't fight wars to preserve his right to literally enslave people. Some have argued that communism enslaves everyone. > This is still irrelevant to the issue of whether statues of Robert Lee should stand erected in public spaces. Agreed, especially if the statue is privately owned, but I do wonder if groups like Antifa are calling for the owner of the Lenin statue to be fired.
bassman9000 9y ago
Is it because the scale of the demise he caused, or because he caused it to non-americans? If it's the former, Lenin is no saint worth a statue: http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Quotes/leninkeyquotes.htm http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/Quotes/leni... If it's the latter, it's a sad example of US-centrism. By that token, <insert any other non-US dictator here> would be acceptable.

wonderbear 9y ago

That one is def in poor taste, but it is private property.

davidreiss 9y ago

Or the US flag and almost every statue in the country. A native american friend in college said the US flag represents the same thing to them that the swastika represents to jews. Should we take down all the flags? After a certain point, you have to forgive and forget and move on or society is going to break down. Especially a nation like ours filled with the unparalleled horrors. Everything from our money, our schools, our cities, etc honor a slave owner or someone who participated in the genocide of the natives. Even MLK was an abusive wife beater and we have a day named for him. Having said that, I can see the other side. A native american certainly has a lot of valid grievances when it comes to the US. I can see how a A black person doesn't want to go to a school named for a slave owner. It's hard to see how we fix things. Do we have a wholesale purging like germany did after ww2 when they removed all glorification of the nazis? How practical is that in a nation like the US? Where is the happy medium? Can a divisive issue like this ever lead to a common ground or a compromise?