4 ms·

"The internet vigilantes claimed some successes over the weekend. One rally participant, Cole White, was fired from his job at a hot dog restaurant in Berkeley,

"The internet vigilantes claimed some successes over the weekend. One rally participant, Cole White, was fired from his job at a hot dog restaurant in Berkeley, Calif." Hmm.. so is that actually a win? What is wrong with people? I seriously want to know. Both sides. How dumb do you have to be to march around with torches across the country because they are going to take down a statue of a Confederate general. And how much dumber have you got that you to be to try to prevent people from expressing themselves. Let them have a ball, march around all night with torches if they so please. Then buy a plane ticket home after the statue gets taken down having accomplished nothing but being a laughable buffoon. Why does it have to degenerate to intolerance and shocking stupidity in all directions? Has humanity always been like this? Or is it just spoiled moderns who don't live in the real world and think little tiny stuff is worth getting in a huff about because the vacuum of modern life has removed real problems from their conception? Anyway, the whole thing is disturbing. And unbelievable in juvenile foolishness. Very hard time conceiving what either side hopes to get out of their behavior here. The solution to people acting silly isn't to act silly yourself. It's laughter.

bassman9000 9y ago
I understand people wanting to keep what they consider part of their history. If it was just for the pure symbolism or credentials of the person represented, shouldn't the Seattle Lenin statue be removed too?
- leereeves 9y ago
  Why does Seattle have a Lenin statue?
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - wyldfire 9y ago
    From [1]: > Initially installed in Czechoslovakia in 1988, the sculpture was removed after the Velvet Revolution and brought to the United States in the 1990s. > Lewis E. Carpenter, an English teacher in Poprad originally from Issaquah, Washington, found the monumental statue lying in a scrapyard ready to be sold for the price of the bronze > ... Carpenter approached the city officials with a claim that despite its current unpopularity, the sculpture was still a work of art worth preserving, and he offered to buy it for $13,000. After many bureaucratic hurdles, he finally signed a contract with the mayor on March 16, 1993. > ... the statue was cut into three pieces and shipped to the United States at a total cost of $40,000. Carpenter financed much of that via mortgaging his home. > The Carpenter family continues to seek a buyer for the statue. As of 2015 the asking price is $250,000, up from a 1996 price tag of $150,000. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Lenin,_Seattle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Lenin,_Seattle
- tacomonstrous 9y ago
  Lenin wasn't the proximate cause of generational misery for an entire community of Americans (and yes, I realise there is also a sizeable group of escapees from Soviet communism here, but I hope that I don't have to point out the obvious differences in scale and effect).
  - leereeves 9y ago
    > the obvious differences in scale and effect What do you mean? More people were killed by communists than by Nazis.
    - tacomonstrous 9y ago
      I was explicitly talking about American communities, which is the context in which the comparison between Confederate statues and the one of Lenin arose.
      - leereeves 9y ago
        We should probably include the leaders inspired by Lenin as well, which leads to significant communities of Chinese, Vietnamese, Korean, Cuban, and other nationalities as well as the Russians. Also the Eastern Europeans who escaped the Iron Curtain, or who still had families behind it. The number of Americans whose families suffered because of Lenin and his followers is hard to count.
        tacomonstrous 9y ago
        My thoughts: a) Lenin didn't fight wars to preserve his right to literally enslave people. b) This is still irrelevant to the issue of whether statues of Robert Lee should stand erected in public spaces.
        leereeves 9y ago
        > Lenin didn't fight wars to preserve his right to literally enslave people. Some have argued that communism enslaves everyone. > This is still irrelevant to the issue of whether statues of Robert Lee should stand erected in public spaces. Agreed, especially if the statue is privately owned, but I do wonder if groups like Antifa are calling for the owner of the Lenin statue to be fired.
- wonderbear 9y ago
  That one is def in poor taste, but it is private property.
- davidreiss 9y ago
  Or the US flag and almost every statue in the country. A native american friend in college said the US flag represents the same thing to them that the swastika represents to jews. Should we take down all the flags? After a certain point, you have to forgive and forget and move on or society is going to break down. Especially a nation like ours filled with the unparalleled horrors. Everything from our money, our schools, our cities, etc honor a slave owner or someone who participated in the genocide of the natives. Even MLK was an abusive wife beater and we have a day named for him. Having said that, I can see the other side. A native american certainly has a lot of valid grievances when it comes to the US. I can see how a A black person doesn't want to go to a school named for a slave owner. It's hard to see how we fix things. Do we have a wholesale purging like germany did after ww2 when they removed all glorification of the nazis? How practical is that in a nation like the US? Where is the happy medium? Can a divisive issue like this ever lead to a common ground or a compromise?
tacomonstrous 9y ago
>Why does it have to degenerate to intolerance? You are asking this question about a rally by actual white supremacists? Seems like an odd thing to ponder. A bit less facetiously, every single one of your questions reads to me like ponderous handwringing. Things were much worse in the 60s and 70s. Yes, one person died and many were injured, but, for a rally where even the governor conceded that the racists were more heavily armed than the police, this went about as well as one can expect.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
0xbear 9y ago
Why stop there, though? There were _many_ US historical figures who owned slaves, and more, were in favor of slavery. If we're going to be principled about it, let's start by renaming Washington DC and go on from there all the way down the list.
- tacomonstrous 9y ago
  This represents a willful misunderstanding of the issue. The problem is not that the statues are feting slaveholders, it's that they are celebrating people who went to war against the Union because they didn't want to give up being slaveholders. Not to mention, most of the statues were put up decades after the war as an explicit message against civil rights and desegregation. Just a vile reminder all around, and there is no good reason to keep them in public spaces. If you want a reminder of history, museums exist for a reason.
  - mythrwy 9y ago
    Do you think people have a right to organize protest against the removal the statue though? That's the key question in this. Not the "righteousness" of having the statue removed.
    - tacomonstrous 9y ago
      That's not the point the parent was making, and not the one I was responding to.
      - mythrwy 9y ago
        When did I suggest that was the point the parent was making? It is however the more general issue. Should people you disagree with have a right to express themselves in protest?
        tacomonstrous 9y ago
        Yes, and they do, independent of my opinion on the matter.

bassman9000 9y ago

I understand people wanting to keep what they consider part of their history. If it was just for the pure symbolism or credentials of the person represented, shouldn't the Seattle Lenin statue be removed too?

leereeves 9y ago
Why does Seattle have a Lenin statue?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- wyldfire 9y ago
  From [1]: > Initially installed in Czechoslovakia in 1988, the sculpture was removed after the Velvet Revolution and brought to the United States in the 1990s. > Lewis E. Carpenter, an English teacher in Poprad originally from Issaquah, Washington, found the monumental statue lying in a scrapyard ready to be sold for the price of the bronze > ... Carpenter approached the city officials with a claim that despite its current unpopularity, the sculpture was still a work of art worth preserving, and he offered to buy it for $13,000. After many bureaucratic hurdles, he finally signed a contract with the mayor on March 16, 1993. > ... the statue was cut into three pieces and shipped to the United States at a total cost of $40,000. Carpenter financed much of that via mortgaging his home. > The Carpenter family continues to seek a buyer for the statue. As of 2015 the asking price is $250,000, up from a 1996 price tag of $150,000. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Lenin,_Seattle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Lenin,_Seattle
tacomonstrous 9y ago
Lenin wasn't the proximate cause of generational misery for an entire community of Americans (and yes, I realise there is also a sizeable group of escapees from Soviet communism here, but I hope that I don't have to point out the obvious differences in scale and effect).
- leereeves 9y ago
  > the obvious differences in scale and effect What do you mean? More people were killed by communists than by Nazis.
  - tacomonstrous 9y ago
    I was explicitly talking about American communities, which is the context in which the comparison between Confederate statues and the one of Lenin arose.
    - leereeves 9y ago
      We should probably include the leaders inspired by Lenin as well, which leads to significant communities of Chinese, Vietnamese, Korean, Cuban, and other nationalities as well as the Russians. Also the Eastern Europeans who escaped the Iron Curtain, or who still had families behind it. The number of Americans whose families suffered because of Lenin and his followers is hard to count.
      - tacomonstrous 9y ago
        My thoughts: a) Lenin didn't fight wars to preserve his right to literally enslave people. b) This is still irrelevant to the issue of whether statues of Robert Lee should stand erected in public spaces.
        leereeves 9y ago
        > Lenin didn't fight wars to preserve his right to literally enslave people. Some have argued that communism enslaves everyone. > This is still irrelevant to the issue of whether statues of Robert Lee should stand erected in public spaces. Agreed, especially if the statue is privately owned, but I do wonder if groups like Antifa are calling for the owner of the Lenin statue to be fired.
wonderbear 9y ago
That one is def in poor taste, but it is private property.
davidreiss 9y ago
Or the US flag and almost every statue in the country. A native american friend in college said the US flag represents the same thing to them that the swastika represents to jews. Should we take down all the flags? After a certain point, you have to forgive and forget and move on or society is going to break down. Especially a nation like ours filled with the unparalleled horrors. Everything from our money, our schools, our cities, etc honor a slave owner or someone who participated in the genocide of the natives. Even MLK was an abusive wife beater and we have a day named for him. Having said that, I can see the other side. A native american certainly has a lot of valid grievances when it comes to the US. I can see how a A black person doesn't want to go to a school named for a slave owner. It's hard to see how we fix things. Do we have a wholesale purging like germany did after ww2 when they removed all glorification of the nazis? How practical is that in a nation like the US? Where is the happy medium? Can a divisive issue like this ever lead to a common ground or a compromise?

tacomonstrous 9y ago

>Why does it have to degenerate to intolerance? You are asking this question about a rally by actual white supremacists? Seems like an odd thing to ponder. A bit less facetiously, every single one of your questions reads to me like ponderous handwringing. Things were much worse in the 60s and 70s. Yes, one person died and many were injured, but, for a rally where even the governor conceded that the racists were more heavily armed than the police, this went about as well as one can expect.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

0xbear 9y ago

Why stop there, though? There were _many_ US historical figures who owned slaves, and more, were in favor of slavery. If we're going to be principled about it, let's start by renaming Washington DC and go on from there all the way down the list.

tacomonstrous 9y ago
This represents a willful misunderstanding of the issue. The problem is not that the statues are feting slaveholders, it's that they are celebrating people who went to war against the Union because they didn't want to give up being slaveholders. Not to mention, most of the statues were put up decades after the war as an explicit message against civil rights and desegregation. Just a vile reminder all around, and there is no good reason to keep them in public spaces. If you want a reminder of history, museums exist for a reason.
- mythrwy 9y ago
  Do you think people have a right to organize protest against the removal the statue though? That's the key question in this. Not the "righteousness" of having the statue removed.
  - tacomonstrous 9y ago
    That's not the point the parent was making, and not the one I was responding to.
    - mythrwy 9y ago
      When did I suggest that was the point the parent was making? It is however the more general issue. Should people you disagree with have a right to express themselves in protest?
      - tacomonstrous 9y ago
        Yes, and they do, independent of my opinion on the matter.