4 ms·

Young men aren't at a disadvantage at all. They are still greatly advantaged, just to a very slightly lesser degree than before. It's like a basketball game wh

by malyk 9y ago

Young men aren't at a disadvantage at all. They are still greatly advantaged, just to a very slightly lesser degree than before. It's like a basketball game where a team was ahead by 45 points at the half. Now they are ahead by "only" 25 points, but somehow they are now at a disadvantage? Certainly they aren't winning by as much, but they are still winning by a significant margin. That's the situation we are in in the tech world.

leereeves 9y ago
And in the larger world? What data are you relying on that suggests young men are advantaged? I've just cited two very significant statistics that suggest otherwise.
- unityByFreedom 9y ago
  Leadership positions are dominated by men. Young men have a higher likelihood of landing those roles. That could also explain why fewer men attend college. They don't need as many credentials to land higher ranked positions.
  - manfredo 9y ago
    Elite positions are disproportionately occupied by men, but so are the positions at the lowest rungs on the social ladder. Men make up 93% of chief executive officers at large companies[1], but they also make up about the same percentage of the prison population (91%) [2]. Men disproportionately occupy both ends of success and failure. On the note of education, men may not need credentials to achieve comparatively well paying jobs, but this comes with other trade-offs. For instance men make up 93% of occupational deaths[3] in the U.S. The tendency for to reach better paying jobs without the same educational attainment may not necessarily a sign of privilege so much as social pressure to take high-risk jobs for more pay. Ultimately, things like privilege are subjective and heavily based on moral weightings. Does being more likely to be killed on the job offset a higher pay? Is being more likely to end up as a CEO offset being more likely to end up behind bars? These are moral - not factual - questions, so there's as many right answers are there are people on this planet. [1] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/women-in-leadership-fortune_us_57cfe23ce4b06a74c9f191cd http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/women-in-leadership-fort... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States#Gender https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_St... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_fatality#Gender https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_fatality#Gender
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      > Elite positions are disproportionately occupied by men, but so are the positions at the lowest run on the social ladder. Men make up 93% of chief executive officers at large companies[1], but they also make up about the same percentage of the prison population (91%) [2] It's not unknown for destitute people in America to deliberately try to get sent to prison for better support; it's not the lowest rung on the ladder, counterintuitive—and perverse—as that may be.
    - unityByFreedom 9y ago
      Were these rates very different before women worked, or before they voted? I have a feeling men have always made up a significant portion of the prison population. This isn't a zero-sum game. Helping women get placement in the workplace doesn't mean men won't get jobs. And, it certainly doesn't mean that we will stop supporting young men stay out of prison. The idea is that as we become a more inclusive society we can all have more freedom to do what we want to do.
      - manfredo 9y ago
        I don't disagree with anything you write here. I'm not sure how this comment is relevant to the point I'm making: that privilege and advantage is a subjective measure that depends on each person's individual values. To re-use the analogy from one of the parent[1] comments in this chain, if societal advancement is a non-competitive game of basketball it's not a zero sum game, just as you say. One group's advancement does not come at the expense of another's. The point is, one person can see that one group is behind compared to another while a different person sees the opposite. For instance someone can place a greater emphasis on wage differences, while a different person more heavily values disparities in occupational deaths. Both reach a opposite conclusion, and neither is wrong since these are claims made based on values as much as data - and values differ from person to person. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15014872 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15014872
        unityByFreedom 9y ago
        > I'm not sure how this comment is relevant to the point I'm making: that privilege and advantage is a subjective measure that depends on each person's individual values. > one person can see that one group is behind compared to another while a different person sees the opposite Okay, I see. I thought, when you started talking about men in prison, that you were tacitly supporting leereeves' statement that young men are disadvantaged compared to young women. In fact, you just wanted to say that people's perceptions of "advantage" are subjective; therefore, one person could easily view men as advantaged in today's society, while another views women as advantaged. To that, I would say, duh =). We're here debating how men and women experience the world in order to both present our own knowledge, and hear about others'. This helps us shape our future values by including more data than we have directly observed ourselves.

by malyk 9y ago

leereeves 9y ago

And in the larger world? What data are you relying on that suggests young men are advantaged? I've just cited two very significant statistics that suggest otherwise.

unityByFreedom 9y ago
Leadership positions are dominated by men. Young men have a higher likelihood of landing those roles. That could also explain why fewer men attend college. They don't need as many credentials to land higher ranked positions.
- manfredo 9y ago
  Elite positions are disproportionately occupied by men, but so are the positions at the lowest rungs on the social ladder. Men make up 93% of chief executive officers at large companies[1], but they also make up about the same percentage of the prison population (91%) [2]. Men disproportionately occupy both ends of success and failure. On the note of education, men may not need credentials to achieve comparatively well paying jobs, but this comes with other trade-offs. For instance men make up 93% of occupational deaths[3] in the U.S. The tendency for to reach better paying jobs without the same educational attainment may not necessarily a sign of privilege so much as social pressure to take high-risk jobs for more pay. Ultimately, things like privilege are subjective and heavily based on moral weightings. Does being more likely to be killed on the job offset a higher pay? Is being more likely to end up as a CEO offset being more likely to end up behind bars? These are moral - not factual - questions, so there's as many right answers are there are people on this planet. [1] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/women-in-leadership-fortune_us_57cfe23ce4b06a74c9f191cd http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/women-in-leadership-fort... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_States#Gender https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_the_United_St... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_fatality#Gender https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupational_fatality#Gender
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    > Elite positions are disproportionately occupied by men, but so are the positions at the lowest run on the social ladder. Men make up 93% of chief executive officers at large companies[1], but they also make up about the same percentage of the prison population (91%) [2] It's not unknown for destitute people in America to deliberately try to get sent to prison for better support; it's not the lowest rung on the ladder, counterintuitive—and perverse—as that may be.
  - unityByFreedom 9y ago
    Were these rates very different before women worked, or before they voted? I have a feeling men have always made up a significant portion of the prison population. This isn't a zero-sum game. Helping women get placement in the workplace doesn't mean men won't get jobs. And, it certainly doesn't mean that we will stop supporting young men stay out of prison. The idea is that as we become a more inclusive society we can all have more freedom to do what we want to do.
    - manfredo 9y ago
      I don't disagree with anything you write here. I'm not sure how this comment is relevant to the point I'm making: that privilege and advantage is a subjective measure that depends on each person's individual values. To re-use the analogy from one of the parent[1] comments in this chain, if societal advancement is a non-competitive game of basketball it's not a zero sum game, just as you say. One group's advancement does not come at the expense of another's. The point is, one person can see that one group is behind compared to another while a different person sees the opposite. For instance someone can place a greater emphasis on wage differences, while a different person more heavily values disparities in occupational deaths. Both reach a opposite conclusion, and neither is wrong since these are claims made based on values as much as data - and values differ from person to person. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15014872 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15014872
      - unityByFreedom 9y ago
        > I'm not sure how this comment is relevant to the point I'm making: that privilege and advantage is a subjective measure that depends on each person's individual values. > one person can see that one group is behind compared to another while a different person sees the opposite Okay, I see. I thought, when you started talking about men in prison, that you were tacitly supporting leereeves' statement that young men are disadvantaged compared to young women. In fact, you just wanted to say that people's perceptions of "advantage" are subjective; therefore, one person could easily view men as advantaged in today's society, while another views women as advantaged. To that, I would say, duh =). We're here debating how men and women experience the world in order to both present our own knowledge, and hear about others'. This helps us shape our future values by including more data than we have directly observed ourselves.