5 ms·

Amateur Sleuths Aim to Identify Charlottesville Marchers, but Sometimes Misfire

47 points by duck 9y ago

ahugebeach 9y ago
Misfire is an under statement. Ruining the lives of innocent people because of mob bloodlust is wrong. Hopefully the doxxers get sued for defamation.
- lightedman 9y ago
  Twitter has shown that they can and do exert control over what's posted on their platform. No service provider immunity for them, they're aiding and abetting this. They need to get sued, too.
  - nemo44x 9y ago
    The law specifically says they are not liable. Either is someone who perpetuates the info by retweeting, for instance. However if you modify the retweet at all then you too can be held liable.
    - lightedman 9y ago
      The law states they are not liable as long as they do not demonstrate effective control on what happens with their service. They have demonstrated that they do indeed control what happens on their service, and what gets posted there.
Overtonwindow 9y ago
There was an interesting book recently called "So You've Been Publicly Shamed" by Jon Ronson which explored what happened when the mob mentality doxxed someone, for better or for worse. I think this unfortunate situation is clear evidence that you should avoid publishing your photo, and personal details online, and do all that you can to build a firewall against the casual mob.
- jonlucc 9y ago
  Ronson has been pretty clear on Twitter that he doesn't consider this such a case. I believe his thought is that these people are putting themselves out in public in front of a bunch of news cameras. They are intentionally drawing the attention to themselves, so they're not exactly the same cases he points to in the book. Edit: I found a tweet [1] where he coalesces some of his thoughts to this effect. [1] https://twitter.com/jonronson/status/896855308974292992 https://twitter.com/jonronson/status/896855308974292992
- smsm42 9y ago
  That sounds like cure worse than the disease. So I can't share my memories with friends, can't have normal public presentation for work, can't speak publicly and have public persona to communicate with others - out of fear that one day a mob of idiots could randomly target me for something I didn't do because some idiot published something on some idiotic forum? Is that really a way to live?
  - quuquuquu 9y ago
    As someone who has been doxxed, ridiculed, harrassed, hacked etc I can absolutely confirm that life is better now outside of the public eye and I am very glad that google searches of my name has dropped off over the years
jacquesm 9y ago
This is no different than vigilante justice and could easily get innocent people in a lot more trouble than it would be worth for a guilty party to walk without being id'd. I sincerely hope the authorities will throw the book at those that go about this in a half assed way and cause actual damage.
- Overtonwindow 9y ago
  It's coming.. I fear this is the end of this terrible moment in our history. Something will happen, and then the mob, be it the right, or the left, but possibly both, will mobilize and people will begin killing one another. A true riot like we've never seen. I am afraid, but resolved that it will likely take death and destruction before society gets a collective slap of sense.
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    I fear with you but hope that cooler heads will prevail before then. Way too much frustration has been building up it needs some kind of release but I'd rather not see war or civil war. Even a 'true riot' I'd rather avoid. The problem is that a 'true riot' could easily be the spark that provides the activation energy for a 'true civil war'. Most of these things are about activation levels being crossed and then there is really almost no way back.
    - jamesmp98 9y ago
      I don't think a civil war is possible.
      - TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
        I think it would require the military to become divided. This seems unlikely.
        jacquesm 9y ago
        That depends on who heads up the military. And that could be a bit of a problem with the present day leader.
0xbear 9y ago
Dude himself has been doxxed by 4chan already, and confirmed his identity on TV. I figure that twitter account has at most couple of weeks of life left in it, until the wrongfully accused serve the guy with legal paperwork. Just to save you a search: https://twitter.com/LoganJames https://twitter.com/LoganJames
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- tanilama 9y ago
  Doxxing works both way. Without some brain gymnastics, it is hard to persuade oneself that some cases of doxxing are good, while others are bad.
  - maxerickson 9y ago
    Is it doxxing to provide a tip to law enforcement? (An indictment would end up having the person publicly identified with the actions in the indictment)
    - CodeWriter23 9y ago
      No. Doxxing quite specifically is the PUBLIC disclosure of personal details.
      - maxerickson 9y ago
        Yes, note the parenthetical. Police generally publicly disclose the names of people that are charged with crimes.
    - tanilama 9y ago
      Doxxing involves a distinguishable and important element, that is public shaming. It doesn't really need the involvement of police or whatever law enforcement.
    - deleted 9y ago
mythrwy 9y ago
"The internet vigilantes claimed some successes over the weekend. One rally participant, Cole White, was fired from his job at a hot dog restaurant in Berkeley, Calif." Hmm.. so is that actually a win? What is wrong with people? I seriously want to know. Both sides. How dumb do you have to be to march around with torches across the country because they are going to take down a statue of a Confederate general. And how much dumber have you got that you to be to try to prevent people from expressing themselves. Let them have a ball, march around all night with torches if they so please. Then buy a plane ticket home after the statue gets taken down having accomplished nothing but being a laughable buffoon. Why does it have to degenerate to intolerance and shocking stupidity in all directions? Has humanity always been like this? Or is it just spoiled moderns who don't live in the real world and think little tiny stuff is worth getting in a huff about because the vacuum of modern life has removed real problems from their conception? Anyway, the whole thing is disturbing. And unbelievable in juvenile foolishness. Very hard time conceiving what either side hopes to get out of their behavior here. The solution to people acting silly isn't to act silly yourself. It's laughter.
- bassman9000 9y ago
  I understand people wanting to keep what they consider part of their history. If it was just for the pure symbolism or credentials of the person represented, shouldn't the Seattle Lenin statue be removed too?
  - leereeves 9y ago
    Why does Seattle have a Lenin statue?
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - wyldfire 9y ago
      From [1]: > Initially installed in Czechoslovakia in 1988, the sculpture was removed after the Velvet Revolution and brought to the United States in the 1990s. > Lewis E. Carpenter, an English teacher in Poprad originally from Issaquah, Washington, found the monumental statue lying in a scrapyard ready to be sold for the price of the bronze > ... Carpenter approached the city officials with a claim that despite its current unpopularity, the sculpture was still a work of art worth preserving, and he offered to buy it for $13,000. After many bureaucratic hurdles, he finally signed a contract with the mayor on March 16, 1993. > ... the statue was cut into three pieces and shipped to the United States at a total cost of $40,000. Carpenter financed much of that via mortgaging his home. > The Carpenter family continues to seek a buyer for the statue. As of 2015 the asking price is $250,000, up from a 1996 price tag of $150,000. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Lenin,_Seattle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Lenin,_Seattle
BadassFractal 9y ago
But hey, remember kids, it's just a bit of unfortunate collateral damage, totally justified when you gotta punch a nazi. After all, punching nazis worked well in the 40s. /s
nemo44x 9y ago
In no uncertain terms this is libel when they misfire. This is not a crime but it is a tort. Those who have been libeled on twitter and other written mediums (or slandered on Youtube, for example) should take immediate and full action prosecuting those that offended. Fierce civil punishment should be put forth to discourage this type of discourse in a lawful society. We have laws for this kind of stuff. Saying that, those that were properly identified should be willing to face the consequences of their repugnant actions. If that's not desirable then simply reject associating yourself with an uncivilized public mob of any sort.
- taneq 9y ago
  It's a crime if the accusations are accompanied by any sort of call to violence against the accused.
  - ThrustVectoring 9y ago
    Accusations of being a Nazi are inherently a call to violence. The amount of "bash the fash" and "it's O.K. to punch Nazis" means that people can reasonably expect violence to be inflicted on folks named-and-shamed as fascist.
aaron695 9y ago
Most humans get enjoyment from hurting others at a base level, but decent people try not do it because of a higher level of functioning and because of cultural values. Unfortunately many parts of society, accept/encourage this behavior in certain situations. (IE the way smokers are treated by many people, what a turn culture has had there) Even if it was him, he should not have been doxxed. A decent human would try and help him if he was wrong and it also sets us up for a decent society. This conversation really should not be around guilt or innocence, it should be around doxxing and attacking individuals. Stick to zombie movies. That's what they are there for, we get to hurt 'people' but not 'real' people.
DrScump 9y ago
Nothing was learned, apparently, from the massive misidentification lynch mob on Reddit in the wake of the Boston Marathon bombing.
lightedman 9y ago
Boston Marathon all over again...
davidreiss 9y ago
These people have to stop. They are the first to complain about doxxing and the first to label others as violent. But they themselves turn around and are violent and actively pursue doxxing. Can you imagine how outraged these same people would be if the right doxxed people who attended LGBT parade and got them fired? Also, their behavior isn't helping. It's just giving the right more power, attention and sympathy. Honestly, if it wasn't for the extreme left going crazy over these marches, nobody would have cared. Let them have their silly marches. But they can't because they want attention and notoriety just like these marchers.
- rhcom2 9y ago
  Attending a LGBT parade and attending a white supremacy rally are not equivalent.
  - davidreiss 9y ago
    Depends on where you are in the world. In many places around the world, attending an LGBT parade will get you fired, arrested and even killed. I'm not saying they are morally "equal". I'm just pointing out why we have freedom of speech, freedom of assembly and rights. Even in the US, 50 years ago, attending an LGBT parade would have been far more damaging than attending a white supremacy rally. The point is that having rights and protecting everyone's rights is what is important. Even those of white supremacists. Otherwise, rights are meaningless and we just have tyranny of the majority or public opinion.

47 points by duck 9y ago

Misfire is an under statement. Ruining the lives of innocent people because of mob bloodlust is wrong. Hopefully the doxxers get sued for defamation.

lightedman 9y ago
Twitter has shown that they can and do exert control over what's posted on their platform. No service provider immunity for them, they're aiding and abetting this. They need to get sued, too.
- nemo44x 9y ago
  The law specifically says they are not liable. Either is someone who perpetuates the info by retweeting, for instance. However if you modify the retweet at all then you too can be held liable.
  - lightedman 9y ago
    The law states they are not liable as long as they do not demonstrate effective control on what happens with their service. They have demonstrated that they do indeed control what happens on their service, and what gets posted there.

Overtonwindow 9y ago

There was an interesting book recently called "So You've Been Publicly Shamed" by Jon Ronson which explored what happened when the mob mentality doxxed someone, for better or for worse. I think this unfortunate situation is clear evidence that you should avoid publishing your photo, and personal details online, and do all that you can to build a firewall against the casual mob.

jonlucc 9y ago
Ronson has been pretty clear on Twitter that he doesn't consider this such a case. I believe his thought is that these people are putting themselves out in public in front of a bunch of news cameras. They are intentionally drawing the attention to themselves, so they're not exactly the same cases he points to in the book. Edit: I found a tweet [1] where he coalesces some of his thoughts to this effect. [1] https://twitter.com/jonronson/status/896855308974292992 https://twitter.com/jonronson/status/896855308974292992
smsm42 9y ago
That sounds like cure worse than the disease. So I can't share my memories with friends, can't have normal public presentation for work, can't speak publicly and have public persona to communicate with others - out of fear that one day a mob of idiots could randomly target me for something I didn't do because some idiot published something on some idiotic forum? Is that really a way to live?
- quuquuquu 9y ago
  As someone who has been doxxed, ridiculed, harrassed, hacked etc I can absolutely confirm that life is better now outside of the public eye and I am very glad that google searches of my name has dropped off over the years

jacquesm 9y ago

This is no different than vigilante justice and could easily get innocent people in a lot more trouble than it would be worth for a guilty party to walk without being id'd. I sincerely hope the authorities will throw the book at those that go about this in a half assed way and cause actual damage.

Overtonwindow 9y ago
It's coming.. I fear this is the end of this terrible moment in our history. Something will happen, and then the mob, be it the right, or the left, but possibly both, will mobilize and people will begin killing one another. A true riot like we've never seen. I am afraid, but resolved that it will likely take death and destruction before society gets a collective slap of sense.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  I fear with you but hope that cooler heads will prevail before then. Way too much frustration has been building up it needs some kind of release but I'd rather not see war or civil war. Even a 'true riot' I'd rather avoid. The problem is that a 'true riot' could easily be the spark that provides the activation energy for a 'true civil war'. Most of these things are about activation levels being crossed and then there is really almost no way back.
  - jamesmp98 9y ago
    I don't think a civil war is possible.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
      I think it would require the military to become divided. This seems unlikely.
      - jacquesm 9y ago
        That depends on who heads up the military. And that could be a bit of a problem with the present day leader.

0xbear 9y ago

Dude himself has been doxxed by 4chan already, and confirmed his identity on TV. I figure that twitter account has at most couple of weeks of life left in it, until the wrongfully accused serve the guy with legal paperwork. Just to save you a search: https://twitter.com/LoganJames https://twitter.com/LoganJames

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
tanilama 9y ago
Doxxing works both way. Without some brain gymnastics, it is hard to persuade oneself that some cases of doxxing are good, while others are bad.
- maxerickson 9y ago
  Is it doxxing to provide a tip to law enforcement? (An indictment would end up having the person publicly identified with the actions in the indictment)
  - CodeWriter23 9y ago
    No. Doxxing quite specifically is the PUBLIC disclosure of personal details.
    - maxerickson 9y ago
      Yes, note the parenthetical. Police generally publicly disclose the names of people that are charged with crimes.
  - tanilama 9y ago
    Doxxing involves a distinguishable and important element, that is public shaming. It doesn't really need the involvement of police or whatever law enforcement.
  - deleted 9y ago

mythrwy 9y ago

"The internet vigilantes claimed some successes over the weekend. One rally participant, Cole White, was fired from his job at a hot dog restaurant in Berkeley, Calif." Hmm.. so is that actually a win? What is wrong with people? I seriously want to know. Both sides. How dumb do you have to be to march around with torches across the country because they are going to take down a statue of a Confederate general. And how much dumber have you got that you to be to try to prevent people from expressing themselves. Let them have a ball, march around all night with torches if they so please. Then buy a plane ticket home after the statue gets taken down having accomplished nothing but being a laughable buffoon. Why does it have to degenerate to intolerance and shocking stupidity in all directions? Has humanity always been like this? Or is it just spoiled moderns who don't live in the real world and think little tiny stuff is worth getting in a huff about because the vacuum of modern life has removed real problems from their conception? Anyway, the whole thing is disturbing. And unbelievable in juvenile foolishness. Very hard time conceiving what either side hopes to get out of their behavior here. The solution to people acting silly isn't to act silly yourself. It's laughter.

bassman9000 9y ago
I understand people wanting to keep what they consider part of their history. If it was just for the pure symbolism or credentials of the person represented, shouldn't the Seattle Lenin statue be removed too?
- leereeves 9y ago
  Why does Seattle have a Lenin statue?
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - wyldfire 9y ago
    From [1]: > Initially installed in Czechoslovakia in 1988, the sculpture was removed after the Velvet Revolution and brought to the United States in the 1990s. > Lewis E. Carpenter, an English teacher in Poprad originally from Issaquah, Washington, found the monumental statue lying in a scrapyard ready to be sold for the price of the bronze > ... Carpenter approached the city officials with a claim that despite its current unpopularity, the sculpture was still a work of art worth preserving, and he offered to buy it for $13,000. After many bureaucratic hurdles, he finally signed a contract with the mayor on March 16, 1993. > ... the statue was cut into three pieces and shipped to the United States at a total cost of $40,000. Carpenter financed much of that via mortgaging his home. > The Carpenter family continues to seek a buyer for the statue. As of 2015 the asking price is $250,000, up from a 1996 price tag of $150,000. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Lenin,_Seattle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Lenin,_Seattle

BadassFractal 9y ago

But hey, remember kids, it's just a bit of unfortunate collateral damage, totally justified when you gotta punch a nazi. After all, punching nazis worked well in the 40s. /s

nemo44x 9y ago

In no uncertain terms this is libel when they misfire. This is not a crime but it is a tort. Those who have been libeled on twitter and other written mediums (or slandered on Youtube, for example) should take immediate and full action prosecuting those that offended. Fierce civil punishment should be put forth to discourage this type of discourse in a lawful society. We have laws for this kind of stuff. Saying that, those that were properly identified should be willing to face the consequences of their repugnant actions. If that's not desirable then simply reject associating yourself with an uncivilized public mob of any sort.

taneq 9y ago
It's a crime if the accusations are accompanied by any sort of call to violence against the accused.
- ThrustVectoring 9y ago
  Accusations of being a Nazi are inherently a call to violence. The amount of "bash the fash" and "it's O.K. to punch Nazis" means that people can reasonably expect violence to be inflicted on folks named-and-shamed as fascist.

aaron695 9y ago

Most humans get enjoyment from hurting others at a base level, but decent people try not do it because of a higher level of functioning and because of cultural values. Unfortunately many parts of society, accept/encourage this behavior in certain situations. (IE the way smokers are treated by many people, what a turn culture has had there) Even if it was him, he should not have been doxxed. A decent human would try and help him if he was wrong and it also sets us up for a decent society. This conversation really should not be around guilt or innocence, it should be around doxxing and attacking individuals. Stick to zombie movies. That's what they are there for, we get to hurt 'people' but not 'real' people.

DrScump 9y ago

Nothing was learned, apparently, from the massive misidentification lynch mob on Reddit in the wake of the Boston Marathon bombing.

lightedman 9y ago

Boston Marathon all over again...

davidreiss 9y ago

These people have to stop. They are the first to complain about doxxing and the first to label others as violent. But they themselves turn around and are violent and actively pursue doxxing. Can you imagine how outraged these same people would be if the right doxxed people who attended LGBT parade and got them fired? Also, their behavior isn't helping. It's just giving the right more power, attention and sympathy. Honestly, if it wasn't for the extreme left going crazy over these marches, nobody would have cared. Let them have their silly marches. But they can't because they want attention and notoriety just like these marchers.

rhcom2 9y ago
Attending a LGBT parade and attending a white supremacy rally are not equivalent.
- davidreiss 9y ago
  Depends on where you are in the world. In many places around the world, attending an LGBT parade will get you fired, arrested and even killed. I'm not saying they are morally "equal". I'm just pointing out why we have freedom of speech, freedom of assembly and rights. Even in the US, 50 years ago, attending an LGBT parade would have been far more damaging than attending a white supremacy rally. The point is that having rights and protecting everyone's rights is what is important. Even those of white supremacists. Otherwise, rights are meaningless and we just have tyranny of the majority or public opinion.