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Although quick fueling is a selling point, I think the real advantage lies in use of an existing distribution system for energy in liquid form. This would facil

Although quick fueling is a selling point, I think the real advantage lies in use of an existing distribution system for energy in liquid form. This would facilitate widespread adoption of electric vehicles without requiring new purpose-built grid infrastructure. If I understand correctly, this technology is a (perhaps better/more robust) flow battery into which one pumps fresh electrolyte after removing "discharged" electrolyte. We now pump and convey by ship, rail and truck, liquid fossil fuels. Fresh electrolyte would be handled likewise. The return loop for used electrolyte is already there. Gas trucks now return empty for refill. In many cases, an empty ship or train returns to a fuel source for refill. These could bring electrolyte back to recharging facilities. Whether these are powered by renewable or nuclear or other energy wouldn't impact the distribution system much. Repurposing the existing fuel distribution to handle electrolytes doesn't seem prohibitive. It's something I hadn't considered, as I'm not used to thinking of electrical energy as a liquid I could deliver in a truck.

jcranmer 9y ago
> We now pump and convey by ship, rail and truck, liquid fossil fuels. Fresh electrolyte would be handled likewise. A lot of refined petroleum is shipped by pipeline. If you live in, say, the DC area, then your gasoline is coming from crude oil refined somewhere in Texas or Louisiana and shipped by pipeline to a distribution terminal. The refuelling trucks are only traveling from the distribution terminal, maybe 20 miles or so, not all the way to the refineries. According to <https://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/rita.dot.gov.bts/files/publications/national_transportation_statistics/html/table_01_61.html> https://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/rita.dot.gov.bts/files/pu..., pipelines carried 63.3% of refined petroleum products in 2009, and an even higher share of (79.8%) of raw crude oil. The numbers for crude are likely to be rather different for today thanks to the Bakken oil field (which happens to not be in a conducive place for the existing pipeline network), but I don't think that refined petroleum products are likely to be very different.
danans 9y ago
You would have to build a new parallel distribution infrastructure, even if it utilized the same kind of components. New tanker trucks and pipelines for moving the product. Local fueling stations would need new underground tanks to store it. New pumps at the fueling station. Charging EVs via the grid involves minimal new distribution infrastructure. The grid already supports high loads like the kind that EVs impose and the nightly pattern of EV charging actually complement wind as an energy source. Flow batteries seem much more promising as utility scale storage for intermittent renewables.
ams6110 9y ago
Another benefit is that the current electrical grid, especially the residential portions, does not have the capacity to service the nightly recharging of EVs if everyone does it. Using existing liquid fuel infrastructure removes the need to upgrade the electrical grid to handle this demand.
- danans 9y ago
  This is only the case in a minority of neighborhoods with very old local distribution infrastructure [1]. Most other local distribution grids can handle the load with little or no upgrades. Even still, between time of use rates and smart charge scheduling, much of the EV charging load can be dispatched in such a way that actually postpones or mitigates altogether the need for grid upgrades. [1] http://et.epri.com/Communications_Potential_Impacts_of_Vehicles_on_the_Grid_2011.html http://et.epri.com/Communications_Potential_Impacts_of_Vehic...

jcranmer 9y ago

> We now pump and convey by ship, rail and truck, liquid fossil fuels. Fresh electrolyte would be handled likewise. A lot of refined petroleum is shipped by pipeline. If you live in, say, the DC area, then your gasoline is coming from crude oil refined somewhere in Texas or Louisiana and shipped by pipeline to a distribution terminal. The refuelling trucks are only traveling from the distribution terminal, maybe 20 miles or so, not all the way to the refineries. According to <https://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/rita.dot.gov.bts/files/publications/national_transportation_statistics/html/table_01_61.html> https://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/rita.dot.gov.bts/files/pu..., pipelines carried 63.3% of refined petroleum products in 2009, and an even higher share of (79.8%) of raw crude oil. The numbers for crude are likely to be rather different for today thanks to the Bakken oil field (which happens to not be in a conducive place for the existing pipeline network), but I don't think that refined petroleum products are likely to be very different.

danans 9y ago

You would have to build a new parallel distribution infrastructure, even if it utilized the same kind of components. New tanker trucks and pipelines for moving the product. Local fueling stations would need new underground tanks to store it. New pumps at the fueling station. Charging EVs via the grid involves minimal new distribution infrastructure. The grid already supports high loads like the kind that EVs impose and the nightly pattern of EV charging actually complement wind as an energy source. Flow batteries seem much more promising as utility scale storage for intermittent renewables.

ams6110 9y ago

Another benefit is that the current electrical grid, especially the residential portions, does not have the capacity to service the nightly recharging of EVs if everyone does it. Using existing liquid fuel infrastructure removes the need to upgrade the electrical grid to handle this demand.

danans 9y ago
This is only the case in a minority of neighborhoods with very old local distribution infrastructure [1]. Most other local distribution grids can handle the load with little or no upgrades. Even still, between time of use rates and smart charge scheduling, much of the EV charging load can be dispatched in such a way that actually postpones or mitigates altogether the need for grid upgrades. [1] http://et.epri.com/Communications_Potential_Impacts_of_Vehicles_on_the_Grid_2011.html http://et.epri.com/Communications_Potential_Impacts_of_Vehic...