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> I prefer absolute freedoms that prevent interpretation from being used to suppress those freedoms. So wait, when someone says "kill all Jews" that's an idea

> I prefer absolute freedoms that prevent interpretation from being used to suppress those freedoms. So wait, when someone says "kill all Jews" that's an idea to be discussed, but when someone says "let's censor people who call for that" that's somehow worse, and not simply also speech you can also discuss?

cortesoft 9y ago
I don't think he is saying you can't ARGUE for that?
- thinkfurther 9y ago
  Then why are they "tired" of such comments? Has anyone here ever actually been near a group of, say, more than two actual nazi skinheads? Would you discuss their ideas in their basement? I'm not for censorship either, but I know what would be needed to confront such people -- namely, going past their "ideas" and to the root, their fucked up, impotent personality -- isn't even allowed on HN. If you get personal here, you're gone. So that's laughable from the get go in a way. Yet if you discuss "ideas" with a Nazi, you're just in endless quick sand. I tried discussing with Nazis, and I'm still up for it (I even tried discussing with pedophiles, but I totally noped out of there because it also achieved nothing and it was even more depressing than the Nazis). But I know the murderous cold that lingers there, and how no Nazi stands on their own. If you win the argument, you get a cold smile saying "just you wait", and that's it. Then you're back to square one. But if you didn't even try that you simply don't know what you're even talking about. edit: take the guy who murdered one person and wounded 19 severely by driving with their car into protesters. His father died early and his mother didn't know what he was up to. I'll just say, this family could used help 10-15 years ago. I don't know how or by whom, but in a magical fantasy world, that would have been the correct solution -- now you can do nothing, just look at the spilled blood. If you want to prevent more of that, look at the people who are growing up with pain today... but by the time their fist is clenched beyond a point, it will take something special or very big to change them, and otherwise they will just hate or even kill, just dwindle mentally or even suicide. Hitler wasn't random, he's the prototype. Stalin wasn't random, he's the prototype. Mental issues are the problem, fucked up childhoods are the problem, not "ideas". Don't assume everybody is that far gone, but also don't delude yourself thinking this is about ideas. And frankly, too many people here aren't even on to themselves enough to meaningfully look at anyone else's personality, and should deal with their own obedience and hiding behind abstractions first.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - liberte82 9y ago
    A lot of people still really don't truly understand the fascist mindset. They don't understand that they don't debate in good faith, and they don't care about facts, or free speech, or anything. They don't care about truth, or lies. They care about power, and they're fueled by hate. Their genius is their ability to use words as weapons, to strike at the weaknesses of a civilization as they are doing now in this free speech 'debate'. They'll use truth, or lies, as needed to get what they want. They're not bound by the usual rules framing debate. During the Charlottesville attack this weekend, these assholes were all over the internet claiming that the attacker was actually an antifa socialist, doxxing an innocent person in the process. After that turned out to be of course false, did they express shame or regret at their lies? Of course not. They went onto the next justification, claiming that the driver had been 'provoked' into driving into the crowd. Now they have the fringe Alex Jones element claiming that the Nazis at this rally were Jewish actors. That's what we're dealing with here. People need to get that through their heads and stop thinking that fascists can be reasonable. They're inherently unreasonable and they use that to their every advantage. They're not ashamed of lies, and they will tell different lies and different truths to different people to sow chaos, confusion and inaction amongst those who speak against them. After they've won, let's see exactly how much they hold up their reverence for free speech as they're claiming to do now. They don't care about free speech. In fact I wouldn't even say they're necessarily against free speech. They don't care about ideas - they'll just kill anyone who gets in their way. They're using our reverence for free speech against us. In some twisted way you could almost say they really are more evolved. Just as we are able to control animals in large groups by understanding their behavior and manipulating it, fascists dedicate their energies to manipulating human emotions and behaviors, both at the micro and macro level. By driving out all compassion from themselves, they open themselves up to actions and manipulations that most people would be prevented from doing by their human shame.
    - cortesoft 9y ago
      "Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past. It is not that they are afraid of being convinced. They fear only to appear ridiculous or to prejudice by their embarrassment their hope of winning over some third person to their side." - Jean Paul-Sartre, Anti-Semite and the Jew
nv-vn 9y ago
It's not that it's better or worse. Saying that you should kill all Jews is, morally, a horrible statement to make. However, saying it is different from acting on it. While it's a statement that most would (and should) find problems with, that is not enough to silence that person. My belief is that this discussion is not simply "one or the other," i.e. there's no point to weighing two views against one another. The moral outrage against a person calling for a genocide is not enough to justify silencing that person's speech, because the two levels of social misdeeds do not overlap.
- thinkfurther 9y ago
  It's not about moral outrage, heh. I guess the US is really a child when it comes to this, once the continent was laid to waste we probably can see eye to eye on this much better. Until then, did you deal with real Nazis before? I did. That guy who wrote a response and then deleted it, probably because they weren't anonymous, did. Anyone else? Anyone coming at this from the street instead of an ivory tower? Ever got chased by a group of Nazis? Stuff like "kill all Jews" is just a mating dance for them, the real talk, and the real weapon collection, happens behind closed doors. So, did anyone at least actually deal with even the TIP of that iceberg, before they're trying to tell me how I can defend myself?
  - nv-vn 9y ago
    How is silencing someone's speech a form of defending yourself? And frankly, as someone who had multiple family members killed during the holocaust, trying to shame someone into agreement with you based on "encountering real Nazis" is ridiculous. Saying that the person who had to delete their response because of what "Nazis" said to them is even worse. You cannot compare people making mean comments or even threats against you on an online forum to a systematic genocide and denial of all human rights committed by your government on the basis of religion, sexual orientation, or ethnicity. Fearing for you life because a dictator has established a mass system designed for your extermination is a very different reality than how you feel after sharing an unpopular opinion under your real identity.
    - 9y ago

cortesoft 9y ago

I don't think he is saying you can't ARGUE for that?

thinkfurther 9y ago
Then why are they "tired" of such comments? Has anyone here ever actually been near a group of, say, more than two actual nazi skinheads? Would you discuss their ideas in their basement? I'm not for censorship either, but I know what would be needed to confront such people -- namely, going past their "ideas" and to the root, their fucked up, impotent personality -- isn't even allowed on HN. If you get personal here, you're gone. So that's laughable from the get go in a way. Yet if you discuss "ideas" with a Nazi, you're just in endless quick sand. I tried discussing with Nazis, and I'm still up for it (I even tried discussing with pedophiles, but I totally noped out of there because it also achieved nothing and it was even more depressing than the Nazis). But I know the murderous cold that lingers there, and how no Nazi stands on their own. If you win the argument, you get a cold smile saying "just you wait", and that's it. Then you're back to square one. But if you didn't even try that you simply don't know what you're even talking about. edit: take the guy who murdered one person and wounded 19 severely by driving with their car into protesters. His father died early and his mother didn't know what he was up to. I'll just say, this family could used help 10-15 years ago. I don't know how or by whom, but in a magical fantasy world, that would have been the correct solution -- now you can do nothing, just look at the spilled blood. If you want to prevent more of that, look at the people who are growing up with pain today... but by the time their fist is clenched beyond a point, it will take something special or very big to change them, and otherwise they will just hate or even kill, just dwindle mentally or even suicide. Hitler wasn't random, he's the prototype. Stalin wasn't random, he's the prototype. Mental issues are the problem, fucked up childhoods are the problem, not "ideas". Don't assume everybody is that far gone, but also don't delude yourself thinking this is about ideas. And frankly, too many people here aren't even on to themselves enough to meaningfully look at anyone else's personality, and should deal with their own obedience and hiding behind abstractions first.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- liberte82 9y ago
  A lot of people still really don't truly understand the fascist mindset. They don't understand that they don't debate in good faith, and they don't care about facts, or free speech, or anything. They don't care about truth, or lies. They care about power, and they're fueled by hate. Their genius is their ability to use words as weapons, to strike at the weaknesses of a civilization as they are doing now in this free speech 'debate'. They'll use truth, or lies, as needed to get what they want. They're not bound by the usual rules framing debate. During the Charlottesville attack this weekend, these assholes were all over the internet claiming that the attacker was actually an antifa socialist, doxxing an innocent person in the process. After that turned out to be of course false, did they express shame or regret at their lies? Of course not. They went onto the next justification, claiming that the driver had been 'provoked' into driving into the crowd. Now they have the fringe Alex Jones element claiming that the Nazis at this rally were Jewish actors. That's what we're dealing with here. People need to get that through their heads and stop thinking that fascists can be reasonable. They're inherently unreasonable and they use that to their every advantage. They're not ashamed of lies, and they will tell different lies and different truths to different people to sow chaos, confusion and inaction amongst those who speak against them. After they've won, let's see exactly how much they hold up their reverence for free speech as they're claiming to do now. They don't care about free speech. In fact I wouldn't even say they're necessarily against free speech. They don't care about ideas - they'll just kill anyone who gets in their way. They're using our reverence for free speech against us. In some twisted way you could almost say they really are more evolved. Just as we are able to control animals in large groups by understanding their behavior and manipulating it, fascists dedicate their energies to manipulating human emotions and behaviors, both at the micro and macro level. By driving out all compassion from themselves, they open themselves up to actions and manipulations that most people would be prevented from doing by their human shame.
  - cortesoft 9y ago
    "Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past. It is not that they are afraid of being convinced. They fear only to appear ridiculous or to prejudice by their embarrassment their hope of winning over some third person to their side." - Jean Paul-Sartre, Anti-Semite and the Jew

nv-vn 9y ago

It's not that it's better or worse. Saying that you should kill all Jews is, morally, a horrible statement to make. However, saying it is different from acting on it. While it's a statement that most would (and should) find problems with, that is not enough to silence that person. My belief is that this discussion is not simply "one or the other," i.e. there's no point to weighing two views against one another. The moral outrage against a person calling for a genocide is not enough to justify silencing that person's speech, because the two levels of social misdeeds do not overlap.

thinkfurther 9y ago
It's not about moral outrage, heh. I guess the US is really a child when it comes to this, once the continent was laid to waste we probably can see eye to eye on this much better. Until then, did you deal with real Nazis before? I did. That guy who wrote a response and then deleted it, probably because they weren't anonymous, did. Anyone else? Anyone coming at this from the street instead of an ivory tower? Ever got chased by a group of Nazis? Stuff like "kill all Jews" is just a mating dance for them, the real talk, and the real weapon collection, happens behind closed doors. So, did anyone at least actually deal with even the TIP of that iceberg, before they're trying to tell me how I can defend myself?
- nv-vn 9y ago
  How is silencing someone's speech a form of defending yourself? And frankly, as someone who had multiple family members killed during the holocaust, trying to shame someone into agreement with you based on "encountering real Nazis" is ridiculous. Saying that the person who had to delete their response because of what "Nazis" said to them is even worse. You cannot compare people making mean comments or even threats against you on an online forum to a systematic genocide and denial of all human rights committed by your government on the basis of religion, sexual orientation, or ethnicity. Fearing for you life because a dictator has established a mass system designed for your extermination is a very different reality than how you feel after sharing an unpopular opinion under your real identity.
  - 9y ago